Question re making yourself look pretty....

[AliGrylls]

Why do women still subject themselves to pain to make themselves look pretty? I am talking with reference to eyebrow plucking, waxing of all body parts and wearing high heels that have the potential to cripple. Also make-up - what do feminists say about make-up?

I ask this question because since I have given up work and had kids I have not bothered to subject myself to any of the above (bar the occasional eyebrow pluck) and I feel liberated by it. I have realised that making yourself look good is actually a pain in the bum and also DH doesn't care very much about what I look like (obviously not as much as I thought he did when we met anyway).

Thoughts please.

I wear makeup because I was bullied for being ugly at school. I wore makeup and it stopped.

I would like to stop wearing it now, but am not quite brave enough yet!

I think there is real confusion on the feminist threads between "life in civilised society" and "patriarchy".

We wash and wear attractive clothes because we are civilised humans who want to make the most of ourselves, for ourselves and for those around us. That is part of "life in civilised society".

Yes Bonsoir. We wash and wear attractive clothes. Make-up, waxing etc. is a bit different.

A lot of how well I am groomed is down to my work persona. I wear make up as a mask. Like Boudicca going into battle.

I wear high heels because I want to be the tallest person in the room.

I am more myself at the weekend (wear a lot less make up and am less severely dressed) but at work I dress to look as good as I can. I put on a different persona for work anyway, what I look like goes with that.

@ Bunbaker - it depends upon the man in question, some do the minimum like showering, shaving and cleaning their teeth, others who are either more vain or less confident or want to express themselves through their image go for tattoos and jewellry. But it's women who are judged much more by their looks. I recently saw an advert in our local chemist for a cream to increase your bustsize! There was no cream alongside for men to supposedly increase the size of their muscles or genitals. I get fed up of being targeted.
I wear foundation, mascara, flattering bras and try to choose clothes that suit my colouring and shape. I suppose it's just wanting to make the best of myself but whether anyone else notices I've no idea!
Oh my DH has a beard cos he got fed up with shaving and he thinks it suits his face shape.

Where are people getting the idea that if you're a feminist (or not) and don't want to shave your legs for a wee while it also means you don't wash, clean teeth, wear nice clothes etc?? Are people deliberately misunderstanding the point?

There isn't much point in wearing a skimpy, pretty sundress and open toed sandals if you are going to have hairy legs and cracked heels etc. I don't wear make up in hot weather.

Nice clothes doesn't automatically mean sundress. And why not wear one with unshaven legs?

Hmmm...one of my oldest frineds is a feminist and rathe rbutch lesbian. She doesn't wax etc but she does take a lot of care with her appearance: her hair is extremely short and regularly trimmed, her clothes, though men's are immaculate.

She also has several tattoos and piercings which hurt every bit as much as waxing...

I just picked sun dress-anything that shows your legs. You can wear one with unshaven legs if you want-it wouldn't make me feel good -so I wouldn't.
It is personal choice. I think tattoos and piercings are horrible. No one has to agree-we are all free to do our own thing.

Treating cracked heels is a kindness to oneself, quite different. It happens to look better, just as being healthy in general is more attractive.

GetOrf, that's just like having a uniform for work I guess, or a costume in a play.

Of course we must do what we want, but examining our reasons and different attitudes and challenging ourselves like I have with the not shaving is fun.

Just had a thought, did Western women shave their legs before fashion started to show legs? Particularly naked legs?

I wear high heels because I buy into the tempting idea that they make you feel and look good. I love being tall and I get a kick out of being perfectly able to walk/run in them. I am aware this is dodgy from a feminist point of view, but at the moment it's one of my cognitive dissonances I'm fairly comfortably with.

As to makeup, I don't feel uncomfortable about it - I don't feel the need to wear it at any particular time so to me it's just decorative. I think having grown up with a mum who has a very puritanical, judgmental attitude to makeup in particular and what S&B would call 'grooming' in general, I see this rather differently from some feminists. My mum made me feel so ashamed of wanting to try out makeup/shave my legs that I now enjoy doing it because I can - ironically mum hated makeup because her mum insisted on buying it for her!

I am like GetOrf, in that I have a defined look for work which generally includes skirts, heels, make up, facial hair threading etc. I do wear it as a performance, and as part of my work personal, but would disagree it was like a play or uniform...because in theory I have choice not to wear these things. Also, none has ever said out loud ..you should wear 'x'. However, in reality I am conforming to the look expected of me.

Weekends, I am a lot more relaxed and make up free. Still like to get spruced up for the occasional night out,but unlike work, it does not feel mandatory.

Work personal = work persona

I think we all do differently from our mums. The threads that make me smile are the ones that say 'should I let my 12yr old DD shave her legs' -as if DD will say 'yes mummy, of course I won't'! My mother told me not to and I did it anyway.

"Bunbaker, there are men with facial hair everywhere. Especially younger men."

I don't really notice/look at younger men as they don't interest me - I am an old biddy. Very few of the dads at school have beards and only one of the guys I work with has a beard. I can honestly say that I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of men I know with a beard.

Personally, facial hair on men is a big turn off for me, I just don't find it attractive. And as for kissing a hairy guy - yuck.

At least half the men I know have some sort of facial hair going on, including those in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. Many full beards.
Regional thing perhaps? Whereabouts are you Bunbaker?

When I worked I hated having to put make-up on - it would come off within half an hour of being the work place and I ended up thinking why did I bother spend 10 minutes doing that.

To me the difference between grooming and prettification is about hygiene. The reason why I wash is because if I don't I will be dirty and more susceptible to illnesses, toothbrushing is about oral hygiene.

heard Cait this morning on womans hour - I never thought I liked her but she does talk sense. I am now a Caitlin Moran fan.

Removing body/face hair is pretty much the only 'feminine' thing I do. No make-up, jewellery, high-heels, wear jeans and t-shirt most days etc. Being hairy is just something I'm very, very self-conscious about. I don't do it for DP, he doesn't mind (and doesn't seem to notice tbh), more for other people really.

OK here is my rule of thumb which I have just come up with - however much prettification you do, you should be able go out and not think about your appearance at all - so, wearing uncomfortable high heels or clothes is bad, but so is feeling awkward because you feel scruffy compared to those around you.

That's how I feel, porpoisefull - better for me to wax/epilate than spend all my time feeling self-conscious and awkward, never going swimming, being uncomfortable in long clothes all summer etc.

I mean, it would be nice to just be hairy and proud like most men seem to be. But not sure I can get there.

I feel human witha face full of make up on the rare occasions I've left the house without it I just stared at the floor hoping I never had to make eye contact,

I have a very wierd unnattractive face so its also practical reasons as i'll get less abuse if I wear it.

Nobody here gives a damn what I look like tbh, but I wear make up becuase it make me feel more confident. Actually I sometimes wear it would be accurate.

One of the days I did was the day ds1 was born, immediately, becuase i'd been through hell and wasn't going to face down the people invovled without feeling 'defended' if that makes sense. War paint I guess.

Don;t wear heels unless for costume (long story), have a fair few pairs of mid height glam shoes that are comfortable to wear as we attend a lot of awards bashes (nothing famous!). Allergic to wax anyway and far too poor of eyesight to pluck. Doesn't bother me at all. It's not that I don't recognise there is pressure but we live outside that to a degree for reasons of fate and I think people are used to the slightly scruffy, boho dressed quiet mum.

Like Boudicca going into battle. YY GetOrf, I am starting a new job in a few weeks and my clothes/makeup really will be battle gear, because I will be nervous and if I am in control of my appearance it helps me to feel in control in general.

The rest of the time, well, some of it is fun (matching eyeshadow to nail varnish) some of it is because I have been conditioned to feel better if I have black eyelashes rather than pale ones.

I prefer to have the choice though.