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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Was Bristol Palin raped?

943 replies

darleneoconnor · 20/06/2011 11:16

according to this bristol palin was so drunk when she conceived her son that she doesn't remember having sex.

Sounds like rape to me.

Then she was basically 'forced' to marry her rapist? WTF! Sometimes America sounds more like the middle east!

Quite a few forums are discussing this, with some

disgusting rape myths on this forum

OP posts:
MrsReasonable · 25/06/2011 10:09

There she goes again, lashing out when she feels the argument might not be going her way. So now if yu even talk about how women lie, you are supporting a women-hating rape culture. Brilliant.

dittany · 25/06/2011 10:10

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Macaroona · 25/06/2011 10:13

Yes Dittany, and SGM has made some really interesting points addressing why Bristol might have lied, and the pressure she was under.

When will you address other posters' interesting points rather than preaching?

You don't have to agree with everyone, but stop telling people they are anti-feminist, MRA, supporting the patriarchy by trying to have a discussion around points of alcohol, consent, teenagers and societal pressure?

HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 25/06/2011 10:13

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Hullygully · 25/06/2011 10:13

dittany - I give up. I have been puzzling for some time to think who you remind me of and it's daftpunk. The insistence on being right, the sense of persecution and being a lone voice, the irrational hurling of insults, the refusal to actually answer questions, the endless repetition of the same point as if that's enough to make it so.

People like you and her can't be engaged with, you don't want it, so okay, I won't. But do bear in mind that it's a huge shame that you are driving people away.

And no, it doesn't mean that I'll be staying away from your personal fiefdom of the fem sec, just that I give up all hope of intelligent, engaged discourse with yourself.

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/06/2011 10:14

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dittany · 25/06/2011 10:15

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dittany · 25/06/2011 10:16

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AliceWhirled · 25/06/2011 10:16

Macaroona - you said "A quote from the Guardian article Alice linked (thanks Alice, interesting article, just cut out the insults and we can have a decent discussion) this:"

I beg your fucking pardon. Where are my insults? Wonderful.

And the selectivity of your copying and pasting from that article is interesting.

HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 25/06/2011 10:18

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StewieGriffinsMom · 25/06/2011 10:18

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StewieGriffinsMom · 25/06/2011 10:18

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HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 25/06/2011 10:19

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dittany · 25/06/2011 10:19

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dittany · 25/06/2011 10:20

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Macaroona · 25/06/2011 10:20

SGM - interesting. I enjoy sex when far too drunk to drive or hold much of a coherent conversation. I'm in a stable relationship, however, wherein we trust each other and know our boundaries. I might even try new things with the alcohol-induced confidence, but it's all good.

Bristol however was in a (I assume) fairly new relationship in which she had not had sex before, therefore for either of them to make the decision to have sex for the first time when very drunk was a bad one.

I think the underage drinking is a big issue here - a 15 year old might well be ready to have sex, but a 15 year old under the influence of alcohol is a different matter.

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/06/2011 10:21

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Hullygully · 25/06/2011 10:21

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HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 25/06/2011 10:21

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dittany · 25/06/2011 10:23

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AliceWhirled · 25/06/2011 10:23

Riven - here from rape crisis website. Consent bit right down the bottom. Apols for the long post others, feel free to scroll on by it is just a c&p for Riven.

What is the current definition of rape in law?

The Sexual Offences Act 2003 (the Act) came into force on the 1 May 2004. It repealed almost all of the existing statute law in relation to sexual offences. The purpose of the Act is to strengthen and modernise the law on sexual offences, whilst improving preventative measures and the protection of individuals from sexual offenders.

Under section 1(1) SOA 2003 a defendant, A, is guilty of rape if:

_ A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;

_ B does not consent to the penetration; and,

_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

The new offence of rape in section 1(1) SOA 2003 includes oral and anal penetration with a penis. This is a change from the previous law which was only concerned with vaginal penetration and used other offences to criminalise these forms of sexual violence (such as indecent assault). The person who commits the offence of rape must be a man (as the penetration has to be with a penis). However, both women and men may experience rape. If the penetration is with something other than a penis then the offence is assault by penetration

For the offence of rape to have been committed the defendant must have penetrated you without your consent, or continued to penetrate you after you withdrew your consent, and the defendant must not have reasonably believed that you were consenting.

It is not relevant what relationship, if any, a defendant has or had with you. Nor is it relevant if the act complained of occurred within a relationship. If the defendant intentionally penetrates with his penis the vagina, anus or mouth of the complainant without her consent where he does not reasonably believe in her consent the defendant has committed rape.

N.B. The wording regarding the law on our website uses the terminology that is commonly used in Law and legal proceedings. The offence of Rape (Sec 1(1) SOA 2003) can only be committed by a man; however, a woman can be charged with, or convicted of rape as a secondary party. For example, a woman may be convicted of rape where she facilitated (helped) a man who has raped another person.

The main provisions of the Act include the following:

* Rape is widened to include oral penetration
* Significant changes to the issue of consent and the abolition of the Morgan defence
* Specific offences relating to children under 13, 16 and 18
* Offences to protect vulnerable persons with a mental disorder
* Other miscellaneous offences
* Strengthening the notification requirements and providing new civil preventative orders

What is the definition of consent?

The Act has three important provisions relating to consent. They are:

* A statutory definition of consent
* The test of reasonable belief in consent
* The evidential and conclusive presumptions about consent and the defendant's belief in consent

Section 74 defines consent as "if she agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice" . In the offences of rape, assault by penetration, sexual assault and causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent, a person (A) is guilty of an offence if (s)he:

* Acts intentionally;
* (B) does not consent to the act; and
* does not reasonably believe that B consents.

Deciding whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents (subsection (2) of sections 1-4). It is likely that this will include a defendant's attributes, such as disability or extreme youth. This is a major change in the law and the Act abolishes the Morgan defence of a genuine though unreasonably mistaken belief as to the consent of the complainant. It means that the defendant (A) has the responsibility to ensure that (B) consents to the sexual activity at the time in question. It will be important for the police to ask the offender in interview what steps he took to satisfy him that the complainant consented.

Hullygully · 25/06/2011 10:25

I have given up engaging with you, I am deeply saddened that you see being sent love as a personal attack, but it all fits the profile. Sad.

StewieGriffinsMom · 25/06/2011 10:25

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HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 25/06/2011 10:26

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Macaroona · 25/06/2011 10:26

Alice - it is an interesting article. Judges have looked into the possibility of bringing in limits for alcohol before sex and found it to be unworkable. They found that the existing legislation is sufficient.

"Yesterday, Sir Igor Judge, president of the Queen's bench division of the high court, said the court's view was that the Sexual Offences Act 2003 "sufficiently addresses the issue of consent in the context of voluntary consumption of alcohol by the complainant".

He said problems did not arise from the legal principles, but "lie with infinite circumstances of human behaviour, usually taking place in private without independent evidence, and the consequent difficulties of proving this very serious offence." "