Was Bristol Palin raped?

[darleneoconnor]

according to this bristol palin was so drunk when she conceived her son that she doesn't remember having sex.

Sounds like rape to me.

Then she was basically 'forced' to marry her rapist? WTF! Sometimes America sounds more like the middle east!

Quite a few forums are discussing this, with some

disgusting rape myths on this forum

ditzy

resorting to name calling tsk tsk tsk. A tell-tale sign that someone has lost the argument.

ONe of the saddests things I've read on MN was a woman beating herself up about not fighting against her rapist. She sort of went along with what he was doing to her.

It took a few feminists on here to explain to her that playing dead or gaining a rapport with a potentially dangerous man is a survival technique that has served women well over the ages. Saying "no" is likely to provoke anger in men.
The problem is that although this survival tactic may save a woman's life in court he can simply state that she went a long with it, or that he believed she was up for it.

Fucking horrible the way the court system has been designed to exonerate men

Agree Sakura, always happens when someone is losing the argument. Also, the "you're picking on me and upsetting me" tactic is good. No harm in going through the thread questioning other people's "feelings" about the need to support teen girls who have had horrible sexual sexual experiences. But as soon as someone questions your "feelings" about not labelling teens, their being "belittling".

While we're here don't suppose anyone has any interesting links/articles/books etc about the mind of the rapist. I'm interested in how much planning they do, whether they know what they are doing and recognize it as rape and any research into how many are prepared to rape.

This is a heartfelt plea.

Would one of you, Dittany, Alice, karma, Sakura, engage with me on a woman to woman level and explain why the fact of saying that sometimes some women lie makes one a misogynist?

Is the line that all women tell the truth at all times? I am very much unhappy at being called a misogynist (let alone mental, irrational and the other names I have been called), and at no time have I called anyone a name. I genuinely want to understand, because I feel like I am trying to have a discussion with a kind of mist, a substance that turns twists and turns and flies out of my grasp when I try to engage with it.

I don't understand the point of the anger and aggression and name calling, it will just drive lots of women away, surely the opposite of what you want?

Don't just slag me off and start with the statistics again, just please please explain.

Can you spell out that UK law p,ease?

Strange how people are chiding me for name-calling, when nothing has been said to dittany about calling me the far more offensive (imo) Men's Rights Activist. Huh. Still, to be expected from the old boy's club of the Mumsnet Feminism section - if you can't attack the argument, attack the poster, I guess.

Hully I am a late-comer to this thread and i've already said I don't want to talk specifically about Bristol Palin, but I think the point Sakura, Dittany, Alice and Karma are trying to make is this:

Yes, some women do lie, but they are so statistically insignificant in comparison to the number telling the truth (many of whom are often tragically disbelieved), that the default position has to be to believe them until it is proven that they have lied. This is the stance that does least harm.

I also feel that for every woman who has lied, there will be many many more who have failed to see that what they have experienced is actually rape. Then there are those who certainly know they have been raped but will not report it for fear of being disbelieved, fear of consequences, etc.

SGM - I'm not sure that based on the information we have from Bristol, that it was necessarily rape under UK law.

A quote from the Guardian article Alice linked (thanks Alice, interesting article, just cut out the insults and we can have a decent discussion) this:

" ^Ruairi Dougal, who had sex with a drunken fellow student, was cleared of rape charges on the basis that "drunken consent is still consent".

Sir Igor said that the outcry after the case was based on a misunderstanding. "All that was being said was that when someone who has had a lot to drink is in fact consenting to intercourse, then that is what she is doing, consenting. Equally, if after taking drink, she is not consenting, then by definition intercourse is taking place without her consent^ "

We know she had no memory of it in the morning when she awoke, but we don't know if when she sobered up, she remembered in a regretful haze as is so common (not a good thing, but not rape if she consented)

Under UK law, drunken consent is still consent. Men know whether or not there is consent, it's not difficult. We don't know if Levi raped her, and I maintain that as there is a hell of a lot more drunken consensual sex occurs than rape, the likelihood is that she drunkenly consented.

I've seen you on other thread Hully so I know you can be a warm, caring person not a misogynist, but the reason I think you've had a hard time on here is because concentrating on the fact that a very small proportion of women who may lie seems like a denial of the number who are telling the truth. It comes across as a bit like saying the two women killed per week by their partners do not matter because the overwhelming majority of women are not killed by their partners.

Sunshine - Bristol hasn't said she was raped, so by discussing whether or not she was, we're not accusing her of lying. Straw man argument from Dittany et al. Rape is bad, yes. Was Bristol raped? We don't know.

Im on the phone since my computer killed itself months back. Very fustrating.

I do think personal attacks are unwarranted. Theres topics id love to discuss on the feminist section as a muslim feminist but i am too scared of personal attacks and 'my way is the only way feminism'
Its sad and its oppressive.

I don't think Bristol Palin is relevant really - it's a principle we're talking about.