Deborah Orr article in Guardian

[MooncupGoddess]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/15/feminism-afraid-of-its-flaws

'But feminism forbids women from admitting too many self-evident truths, for fear that the utterance of them will encourage discrimination.'

Hmm. I really like Deborah Orr, and am rather disheartened that she feels 'uncommitted' and has 'reasonable doubts' about describing herself as a feminist.

'First, I am a feminist. I just have trouble describing myself as such IN SPOKEN WORDS.'

Gosh poor Deborah. Perhaps we should hold her hands and gently encourage her, letter by letter.

It's true dittany . She's just so shrill.

Dittany and Mooncup - you forgot hysterical. Thank God she's here though, to explain it all. It has clearly eluded her that women get custody after relationships end because they did all the f**in' childcare already.

Hello, might someone explain what 'doing a wolf' means?

MrsKarbonara, it's Wolf as in Naomi Wolf - being a feminist in youth and then realising later that the world will reward you personally much more highly for supporting the patriarchy and being rude about feminists than it will for sticking to your principles.

"I don't know if you're furious because you think I didn't read you piece, or because you think I ripped it off. I read the piece, in fact, but not the comments. In general, though, I'd suggest that if you don't want your writing to influence others, then keep it to yourself."

Good grief, surely if you have read something that has influenced you you should acknowledge it graciously?

What on earth is wrong with promoting the idea that you can work and have children quite easily? It's not particularly difficult. Men do it all the time - quite a few of them even 'have it all'. It's not a 'self-evident truth' in my world that having children automatically makes mothers uninterested in working, any more than is the case for fathers (I always get very annoyed at all those surveys that ask mothers who work if they'd prefer not to, when not asking fathers the same question, or indeed asking all working people. Lots of people don't much enjoy working and would rather just have the money - perhaps most people).

Oh and I have plenty of autonomy without any particular dependance on the state - or at least no more than any other family (ie for education, healthcare, street lighting etc etc) nor do I think that feminism should primarily be about women's 'vulnerability' because except when forced to be I am not vulnerable - surely a lot of the point is to be confident in saying that I am as good as any random man (because it is 'self-evident' that I am).

Not sure why wanting equality should give anyone 'profound intellectual discomfort' unless they were a bit hard of thinking really.

Stupid woman.

There are some seriously deluded comments after that article. Someone wittering about how women have 'sexual power' ffs

Deborah responds, rather incoherently:

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/22/feminism-single-parents

That is both an incoherent and deeply stupid article. I am sure I should justify my thoughts with some analysis....but I just can't be bothered.

Yes, I feel like that too, snowmama! Particularly dim is her comment that she thought everyone knew that feminists had been in the forefront of campaigning for support for working women etc... does she never read the comments by the army of misogynists underneath any Guardian article that mentions women or feminism??