Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Take responsiblity for how you act and what you wear

144 replies

PurpleStrawberry · 15/06/2011 12:23

Nick Freeman (AKA Mr Loophole), lawyer to the stars, had this to say in his column for the Manchester Evening News yesterday. A friend who lives in Manchester has e-mailed me the article.

Because yes, of course, if a woman is dressed in a certain way, she is only out to attract/lure men.

menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/comment/blogs/s/1423562_nick-freeman-take-responsibility-for-how-you-act-and-what-you-wear

Arsehole.

OP posts:
ElephantsAndMiasmas · 15/06/2011 17:07

Look, the article on which nearly all of us are commenting, linked in the OP, is mainly about rape, and the comment is that women should "take responsibility". Read it, it is the context of the conversation.

To post as if we're talking about people looking at women is just really wrong, frankly. It makes it sound as if we're madly overreacting, when in fact the "looking" thing is a complete red herring. Article is about rape. Seriously, it honestly is. Read it.

SardineQueen · 15/06/2011 17:07

Have you read the article?
What do you think of the man in the article and his comments about the girl he was kind enough not to rape?
Why are you talking about people looking at each others arses? What has that to do with the conversation at hand?

It's not an "alternative point of view" - no-one has put a point of view one way or another on the thread about looking at people's arses, we have all been talking about rape. You are basically wildly off topic, which is annoying as it always happens on threads in this section.

smashinghairday · 15/06/2011 17:08

Slightly O/T but you know when you read articles talking about how women over forty become invisible?

I love that. I feel very liberated as an older woman as I did spend most of my yoof being looked at /leered at ( and I never wore short skirts ) and being more invisible is fantastic.

Although I did laugh the other week when two young lads drove next to me as I was walking having a good gawp and then nearly died trying to look the other way when they clocked my face and saw I was old enough to be their mother! Grin

DontCallMePeanut · 15/06/2011 17:08

Smashinghairday Hmm whatnow? I don't get offended if I get "checked out" (as my nephew calls it). I get pissed off if I'm leered at, though, and even more so if I'm groped.

No, society is dictated by what MEN deem acceptable. Y'know, they either think they need to protect us, or think we shouldn't be provoking them.

Original poster
PurpleStrawberry · 15/06/2011 17:10

No-one is saying people won't judge what women wear, people shouldn't judge, but I accept they do.

The issue is, people like Mr Loophole are telling women they shouldn't dress as they wish, so they aren't judged and also to stop giving out the 'wrong message' to men like him.

If Mr Loophole is getting the wrong message from how some women dress, he's the one with a problem, it's up to him to sort it.

OP posts:
DontCallMePeanut · 15/06/2011 17:10

I say this far too often, but I agree with SardineQueen. She's hit the nail on the head, IMHO.

smashinghairday · 15/06/2011 17:11

I have read the article.

I think the guy was honest about the rape he never committed. I don't think he wants a medal and I think he acted like most men - i.e a bit pissed off that he'd been " led on". And he had, no means no but we do need to take responsibility for not getting into difficult situations.

I dunno, how okay is it to get naked in bed with a bloke and then remember, at the last moment, you've got a boyfriend?
It's not very kind, is it ? Or even a decent thing to do. If a man did it to me, I'd be pretty pissed.

smashinghairday · 15/06/2011 17:13

Don'tcallmepeanut - being groped is utterly unacceptable and very different form being leered at.

SardineQueen · 15/06/2011 17:13

ShockShockShock

I think some people on MN associate with really horrible men.

SardineQueen · 15/06/2011 17:15

It's not normal for a man to want to rape a woman.
It's not normal to be angry if a woman decides after some "petting" that she doesn't want to have sex. Disappointed, sure. Frustrated, probably. Angry? Not a normal reaction IMO.

SardineQueen · 15/06/2011 17:17

Leering is not fine. Looking is fine. Leering is at the very bottom end of aggressive sexual behaviour.

See a schoolgirl being leered at openly by a group of men and tell me it's fine. it's not. It's sexually aggressive. It's also not something that women tend to do to men. Women look. Men leer. Interesting isn't it. I expect you will explain this is because men are base animals who can't resist their urges. Or something.

DontCallMePeanut · 15/06/2011 17:19

Yes, but smashinghairday, you are spouting a load of rape apologetics. But you diminish it by saying "ooh, it's ok to leer over a woman if she's in this outfit".

No. Look, by all means.

Leering is just as uncomfortable, and to me, one step away from groping.

joaninha · 15/06/2011 17:19

"You are basically wildly off topic, which is annoying as it always happens on threads in this section."

SardineQueen, I think you should remember that people love to go wildly off topic in these threads because then it fulfills a deep need to make feminists seem like they're just a bunch of whining harridans who love nothing more than to over-react and get their knickers in a twist!!

SardineQueen · 15/06/2011 17:19

And the point, as with the point of all this, is that men who leer, leer at lots of women and girls, irrespective of what they are wearing.

Men who don't leer, don't leer even when confronted with a woman who meets their "ideal woman" criteria. They look. They look a lot. They might look a bit pop-eyed. But they don't become a "leerer".

It's nothing to do with the women. It's all to do with the men.

SardineQueen · 15/06/2011 17:23

Grin peanut and joaninha

joaninha · 15/06/2011 17:25

Ooooh SQ, what we need is an International Woman's Leering Day - where all the women of the world wolf-whistle and make lewd comments at guys we think are fit. Then they might see what a pain in the arse it is.

Oh please can we have one?!!! I'm getting well excited now!

DontCallMePeanut · 15/06/2011 17:27

Oooh, I'll type it again...

I agree with SardineQueen...

I know men who leer, and it makes me uncomfortable. In fact, one guy (I don't see him now, tf) used to leer at me regularly, and went as far as groping me, which resulted in my boss barring him (temporarily, mind)

I know other men that look. But they also respect women. They talk to women, not their chests. A man talks to my chest, and I find a reason to leave.

DontCallMePeanut · 15/06/2011 17:29

YES! International Leer At Men Day!!! I'm in! Grin

AyeRobot · 15/06/2011 17:34

sAf, I think you are spot on with what you said about the "How dare she? I'll show her..." attitude. Thank you for putting into words what I have felt for a long time about some men and have wondered what it was that caused me to veer away from them/not be alone with them/whatever. That's exactly it.

Mr Loophole shows his support for the entitled class through his work. He shows that he's part of it through that article.

SardineQueen · 15/06/2011 17:37

I think from his job you can tell he's a not very nice person. So not that shocking I guess, that he thinks like that. It's sad though that we're not even at the stage where people with these sorts of views feel that they can't air them.

And Blush @ peanut Smile

ChiddelyPie · 15/06/2011 17:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
PurpleStrawberry · 15/06/2011 17:42

When I was at university, I had a lecture where another student used to leer at me, and sometimes during lectures I could feel him looking at me. It was so creepy. The result of it was, I got so uncomfortable about it, that it started to impact on my concentration, for example I would 'switch off' from what the professor was saying and miss making important notes.

In the end, I spoke to my professor about it, and it transpired I wasn't the only student who had made complaints about this man. In fact, he had faced a student hearing on a prior occasion, and he ended up getting 'sent down' (Cambridge term for being expelled) after my complaint.

OP posts:
Original poster
PurpleStrawberry · 15/06/2011 17:43

I should add, it wasn't only in this lecture the student would leer at me, it was socially as well.

OP posts:
nailak · 15/06/2011 17:45

imo there are two issues which are confused,

if you are dressed provocatively, you are likely to et unwanted attention, lewd comments, cars beepin etc, this can be annoyin and demeanin

however rape is not about what you wear, most rape occurs in private places and people know their attacker.

joaninha · 15/06/2011 17:46

Aw, you gotta feel sorry for Mr Loophole though. After thousands of years of entitlement for men and he gets to be part of the first generation that has to put up with this consent nonsense. I'd be a bit miffed too .... poor luv.