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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

985 replies

sakura · 28/05/2011 01:15

[[

#at=380 youtube]]

ANd why women are feared to the extent that they are accused of witchcraft and killed for it
OP posts:
Goblinchild · 30/05/2011 12:23

I don't think that people are doubting the events, and I think that them being more widely taught is a very good idea. It's more that the facts need to be accurate and the reasoning sound if it isn't to be dismissed as a topic by many others.
Dittany, you are fantastic at presenting an argument possibly because you are focused and are meticulous about accuracy both in quoting and in being quoted. If you were merely shouty and passionate about the big picture then your words would not get the same level of respect that they command.
Whether that's fair or not, I don't know.

dittany · 30/05/2011 12:23

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:24

Ok, put it this way.

How about if I went around telling people that some Jews in around 1600, back when King George II was King of Kent, were killed. About twenty billion of them, it was shocking - and that's the Holocaust.

Would that not be immensely, crashingly offensive?

In exactly the same way, so is this. The fact that Witch Trials (like the Holocaust) did indeed happen makes it worse to lie about it, not better.

Goblinchild · 30/05/2011 12:25

Yes, all those things are true, along with the thousands of other women who lived in fear in case they were accused.

StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 30/05/2011 12:25

Well said LRD.

This is religious polemic - it is not history.

And yes Dittany, I studied it as an actual topic.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:26

And referring to a millenium of history as 'minutiae' again. Words fail.

Don't you think the women who lived them deserve to be treated as real people? Or should we just steamroller over them and their lives so we can propagandize in the service, not even of feminism, but of religion?

StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 30/05/2011 12:27

This really is crackers, doesn't matter if it's crap, aslong as it's feminist it's ok...

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:28

Stuck, not yelling at you, but I have to get this out:

IT IS NOT FEMINIST!

It's a load of bollocks that's harmful to feminism and insulting to real women.

StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 30/05/2011 12:31

No, but it's pretending to be feminist. It is what the historicaly illiterate will take for feminist history - giving the real thing a bad name.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:32

Exactly. Sad

Sorry, the shouting was honestly not at you - just annoyance that anyone would think this is feminist. It's daft maybe, but I really care about women not being shut and lied about.

suzikettles · 30/05/2011 12:33

I don't know if it still is, but certainly when I was at school (in Scotland) the witch trials were taught at secondary school (O grade I think) as part of Scottish history. I can't ever remember not knowing about that particularly horrific part of my country's history.

I doubt there's a person in Scotland over the age of about 10 who doesn't know something about it through local knowledge (many the names of people who died during that period are still known locally), books, exhibitions, songs, folk tales.

StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 30/05/2011 12:35

I know, this sort of twaddle makes me angry too.

It's the kind of crap which leads young girls to say they aren't feminists - simply to avoid association with this sort of complete and utter dross.

suzikettles · 30/05/2011 12:38

This might be a good place to start if you're interested in finding out more about the situation in Scotland.

dittany · 30/05/2011 12:38

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dittany · 30/05/2011 12:39

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dittany · 30/05/2011 12:40

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StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 30/05/2011 12:41

It does not have a flaw, it is a flaw.

It doesn't know it's arse from it's elbow so why on earth are you so attached to it?

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:42

That might well be. It's also the kind of thing that makes people snigger at the idea of women's history or feminist historians.

I don't know much about paganism, but I know a couple who claim to be pagans, and if they are representative, then it is not a religion remotely good for women. He's a predatory creep who goes for vulnerable young women. So, as a side point, I do wonder exactly what kind of religion that film was promoting. I also found it interesting they seemed to feel the need for a Catholic priest to come along and talk approvingly about the lady who was a witch - not sure any religion that promotes itself via the approval of Catholic priests is one I'd expect to be good to women. But I don't like religious propaganda dressed up as history anyway.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:43

(Sorry, that was to stuck at 12.35)

suzikettles · 30/05/2011 12:43

Really? Not James VI and his witchcraft obsession? I'm 80% certain it was in the O grade syllabus in the late 1980s.

StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 30/05/2011 12:44

Ok, so this is a revelation to you. Just because you didn't know about it, does not mean that there is anti-feminist conspiracy to cover it up.

Bad history, makes you look foolish. This is bad history. Everybody here with any historical skill is telling you this, you can insist otherwise until you are blue in the face, but it still will be bad history.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:45

dittany - you just suggested 'women doing feminism things gets up your nose'?! Really?

Do you really want to defend this crap, that is lying about women and promoting the message that women's oppression in history isn't important enough to get right, and tell me I'm not a good feminist?

Based on this thread, it's quite clear you're not thinking as a feminist at all, or you would be angry about lies spread about women's oppression.

dittany · 30/05/2011 12:46

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StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 30/05/2011 12:46

I've met pagans who were good people and pagans who were bad people. I'm met genuinely feminist pagans and (like you) a rather creepy man who misused it. No different to any religion.

You're right, it makes feminist history look silly. Not helpful.

StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 30/05/2011 12:48

It's conveying bollox.

The passion is directed at the crapness of it, we KNOW that the burning times happened. We don't need a religious polemic to get the point across. It's bloody patronising to suggest otherwise.

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