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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

985 replies

sakura · 28/05/2011 01:15

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#at=380 youtube]]

ANd why women are feared to the extent that they are accused of witchcraft and killed for it
OP posts:
dittany · 30/05/2011 12:48

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sparky246 · 30/05/2011 12:49

i have no idea what everyones talking about-so my post might be really stupid.
but....
im not too sure that these days witchcraft is just seen as a curiousity and entertainment-i think that if ss thought a woman was practicing witchcraft they would soon be round to her home[if she had children]
also-wasnt this used sometime ago to remove some children from theyre parents?

dittany · 30/05/2011 12:50

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:50

dittany, this is actual sexism and oppression we're talking about. This is lying about a thousand years of women's history and pretending it never existed. This is putting the message forward that you can lie about women's history because it doesn't matter.

Unlike you, I have no interest in apologetics for people who lie about women. You might want to think about why you do.

stuck - I'm sure you're right about it being 'like any religion'.

MooncupGoddess · 30/05/2011 12:52

'I've never seen the same level of passion, anger and contempt coming from some of the people on this thread at actual sexism and oppression and harm to women.'

That's odd dittany because I can remember a lot of people on this thread being consumed with passion, anger and contempt about the DSK scenario and Ken Clarke's offensive remarks re rape. And that was only two weeks ago!

Most of us posting on this thread value proper historical research and analysis. You don't seem to, but it would be nice if you at least made an effort to understand our views in this respect. This is not an ant-feminist position!

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:52

You're still arguing that getting a date wrong by a thousand years doesn't matter, dittany?

Does it also not matter if rapists lie and are believed? Does it not matter if we lie to little girls and tell them they've never had it so good and they just can't expect anything but to be second best? Or is it only lies about women in the past that you're absolutely fine with?

dittany · 30/05/2011 12:52

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:54

Read the thread, dittany, you know which thousand years.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 12:55

I just get furious at the idea that women are so unimportant, and their oppression is so unimportant, that a documentary can pretend a thousand years of history didn't happen, and not think they've lost anything. Imagine how you'd feel if someone did that about us.

dittany · 30/05/2011 12:55

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 13:00

Whatever she is, she ain't a feminist documentary maker base on this!

I meant the thousand years from the coming of Christianity, to 1132, when (according to that documentary) it was 'new'. You would know this if you had read the thread with a view to anything but proudly proclaiming your ignorance and equating it with feminism. Millions of real women lived during those 1000 years. They matter.

StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 30/05/2011 13:02

Dittany, I know sod all about certain areas of history. That is because history is huge and you cannot know all of it.

Do I therefore think there is a conspiracy to cover up the bits I don't know about? No.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 13:06

I think there is a deeply ingrained sexism in history, though. There must be - women's experiences have, by and large, been considered less important in history. It's a conspiracy in the sense that it's enforced by cultural assumptions about who's important and who's not.

It's just that, to me, the way to combat that is to learn and teach about what really happened and to clamor for proper and respectful study of women in the past.

StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 30/05/2011 13:08

This "documentary" not only ignores a thousand years of Christian history, but focuses almost entirely on pre-Roman religion. It ignores entirely a few hundred years of norse beliefs.

It cheery picks what it wants you to see. It does this as it clearly has a bias to the wiccan faith - which often identifies with pre-Roman beliefs. That is religious polemic. History is not simply about the presentation of facts. It is about putting those facts in context, detecting the bias in the presentation and analysing it appropriately. Accept things at face value at your peril.

StewieGriffinsMom · 30/05/2011 13:12

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 13:13

That's true. Norse beliefs would have been interesting, though I think tough to study because of the gap between them being practiced and being written down.

I thought a lot of what it said boiled down to 'women were once revered/powerful ... conveniently before recorded history ... '. I mean, fine, if you think that's true, show me why you think so! The way they located this supposed 'pre-Christian' period of woman power in the millenium when we know perfectly well many women were being oppressed and their rights restricted, is horrible.

AliceWorld · 30/05/2011 13:18

Hang on, everyone knows about it, it's taught at school, yet people think it's funny to dress up as witches at halloween, and write kids books about it making out the women were evil? Hmm And that is mainstream. Hmm wonder why that could be...

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 13:21

Alice - Yes ... I think it's very like the attitudes in Victorian times that, although people knew Jews had been persecuted and tortured across medieval England, it was still somehow ok to caricature them and to have characters like Fagin be so popular.

I don't know if that means the Witch Trials need to be studied more, or if it's more that we need to start being uncomfortable about nasty stereotypes of women - maybe the latter?

MitchiestInge · 30/05/2011 13:23

I didn't like that neo-pagan evangelical documentary and have come away feeling incredibly irritated and patronised, this idea of wicca and everything pre-Christianity as some sort of utopian matriarchy is ridiculous.

Himalaya · 30/05/2011 13:25

I am Hmm at the idea that trying to be accurate about something important is considered as directing our attention in the wrong place. I just don't get it.

AliceWorld · 30/05/2011 13:25

How did the idea that women were persecuted make you feel?

LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 13:28

The truth that women were persecuted makes me angry and sad. I think this is a double persecution though, to lie about them as if they don't matter.

MitchiestInge · 30/05/2011 13:29

Alice - I felt angry that the fact their persecution and very real sufferings, which I think still has echoes for women today, was used so carelessly that it detracted from the horror. It absolutely deserves better.

StewieGriffinsMom · 30/05/2011 13:29

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 30/05/2011 13:31

I don't need fairytales about strong women being oppressed to remind me to be angry and sad about what happens to women. There's quite enough reality for that, thanks. To imply, as this film does, that we need a fiction in order to get angry about women's oppression is to suggest that there's not enough real oppression to merit that response. It diminishes what has happened to women, which is exactly what anti-feminism is.

I can't understand how anyone could think they were a feminism and defend this.

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