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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Ways the TV series 'Friends' was anti-feminist

330 replies

darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 12:23

comes from another thread

-There are lots of references to porn, which totally normalises it

  • The women are unhealthily skinny
  • The 'fat Monica' running joke
  • Joey's womanising
  • Phoebe being used as a womb for hire
  • Monica was riddiculed for dating someone 7 years younger than her but it was ok for Ross to date someone 10 years younger then him
  • All the girls' desire to get married (especially Monica's bridzillaness), as opposed to the boys
  • the anti-single mother rant Monica had at her wedding
  • Rachel's birth was very medicalised and disempowering (but in context of USA healthcare system I suppose)
  • Chandler having to be 'taught' how to have a relationship
  • Monicas getting slagged off for having 'lots' of lovers
  • In the episode where Rachel, Phoebe and Joey make an issue of earning less than the others no-one mentions the gender split
  • They do quite gender-specific jobs, Monica/cooking, Joey/acting (which is 2/3 male), Ross/Paleontologist, Phoebe/massuese, Rachel/waitress/fashion buyer, Chandler/IT(?)
  • they get a stripper for a stag do then glamourise it by her saying how well she is paid
  • Ross's homophobia and his lack of equal parenting of his child
  • Monica's obsession with cleaning
  • the rich Monica and Chandler adopting the babies of someone too poor to keep them herself
  • Chandler pretending to watch tv so he doesn't have to do his fair share of the thanksgiving cooking
  • The football game where Rachel is a 'useless' girl, Phoebe flashes her breasts to win a point and Monica is ridiculed for being as competitive as the boys

I'm sure there's more...

OP posts:
JoanofArgos · 07/05/2011 20:54

No, it was her inhospitable womb!

Another thing: the way in which the female characters go loopy when pregnant. They have unreasonable cravings, desires, irritations, and are utterly irrational and unpredicatable.

AyeRobot · 07/05/2011 20:56

Re the cleaning thing - I've heard more than one man refer to their partner as "Monica" for having perfectly normal views on cleanliness and hygeine. And I mean even normal for me and I am very chilled about these things.

dittany, yes that story is shocking, although having worked in a few male dominated environments, I am maybe more weary than shocked. Of course, this kind of behaviour is a) why so much sexist crap gets through on tv and film and b) why the whole "there's nothing to stop women being car mechanics/oil rig workers/construction workers/other male dominated activity" is a load of crap. Who the fuck wants to deal with that on a daily basis AND deal with the usual work-related stresses?

Original poster
darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 20:58

Most fertility problems in the 35+ group are age-related. female fertility declines from age 25. The problems she had at 35 she could well not have had at 28 when she was talked out of becoming a single Mum. Of course the writers wouldn't specifically mention age- it would piss off the viewers no end!

If you want a fertility debate please start another thread or I will have to tell you to ABCD XYZ.

OP posts:
zikes · 07/05/2011 20:58

I thought Monica had OCD.

swiperstopswiping · 07/05/2011 20:59

Swiper-On the normalisation- have you been away with bin laden for 10 years or has the Civil Partnership Act and the rise of surrogacy passed you by?

Those things still aren't considered, to use your terminology, 'normal' though, are they?

I would engage with you further but your staggering rudeness prevents it.

Enjoy your monologue Smile

HerBEggs · 07/05/2011 21:04

"I haven't seen any anti-feminists on this thread"

Laurie. Stick around. Grin

NettoSuperstar · 07/05/2011 21:08

There was a chance Monica could get pg, but not with Chandler's baby. She decided that if she couldn't be pg with his baby, she didn't want to be pg with anyone elses, so they adopted.

Joey talked her our of single motherhood, because it wasn't what she wanted, and he knew it. What she wanted was to get married and have a family.

She also turned down the chance to have a baby with Richard, who although not keen, agreed to it.

Tidey · 07/05/2011 21:09

I'm not trying to have a fertility debate, I'm merely telling you what was said in the show. Monica had an 'inhospitable environment' and Chandler had a low sperm count or low motility, I think. No suggestion was made that it was her own fault for not having a child at 28. You don't need to be quite so hostile, if you want people to discuss your theory and not just blindly agree with you.

darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 21:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

swiperstopswiping · 07/05/2011 21:26

Darlene, you do realise that the only person derailing this thread is you, don't you?

As a total aside, didn't you used to be darleneconnor? Was that you? The poster who wrote that they felt sorry for people who had children that were the same sex, because they didn't have the full 'set'?

Strange thing for a feminist to write, that was.

JoanofArgos · 07/05/2011 21:28

How come Joey knew what she wanted better than she did? That's a bit odd.

Original poster
darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 21:29

great- anti-feminist censorship, just what this forum needs!

I hope you are happy with yourself swiper.

OP posts:
NettoSuperstar · 07/05/2011 21:30

Okey dokey.
So then, if Monica was so desperate to have a baby, any baby, then why did she turn down Richard, and why did she not pursue using a sperm donor when she was with Chandler.

Why did she wait until she had the marriage, and have a baby on equal terms with her husband?

Was it really because a 5 minute talk a man gave her?

If a single friend of yours who you knew wanted marriage and a family, at 28 suddenly announced they were going to have a baby with a donor when they'd never mentioned it before, you wouldn't think to question it?

Original poster
darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 21:30

joan-that's just what I said but swiper had it deleted

OP posts:
Original poster
darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 21:32

No, I wouldnt tell a woman when and how to have children. that is no-one's business except hers, as is the law.

OP posts:
swiperstopswiping · 07/05/2011 21:33

Darlene, you told me to fuck off. I know you think you make the rules here, but you don't.

You, personally, told me to fuck off. If you want to debate here then debate within the rules of the forum.

electra · 07/05/2011 21:33

Messages only get deleted for personal attacks. Shame you can't take responsibility for your own posts.

Original poster
darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 21:33

herb-it didn't take long did it?

OP posts:
Ihavewelliesbuttheyrenotgreen · 07/05/2011 21:33

swiper, exactly re Chandler's parents divorce. All I said is that it played a part in his issues with relationships which it blatently did imo. I don't understand why Darlene interprets this as blaming the mother. Also the reason I said that I don't think Monica's cleaning obsession is shown as the norm is that other women on the show do not have the same obsession. Surely we're being shown a variety of women some with cleaning obsessions (the minority) and some without cleaning obsessions (the majority). Therefore if we were going to interpret this literally into our views of RL we would assume that the miinority of women have a cleaning obsession while the majority do not, which is probably accurate.

Al0uiseG · 07/05/2011 21:34

Swiper did not "have it deleted" I certainly requested it's deletion.

LaurieFairyCake · 07/05/2011 21:35

In my opinion Joey talked her out of it because he KNEW her (like they all really knew each other). He knew she was just reacting to her break-up like with the mad jam making and shopping at the docks at 5am (same episode).

There are many, many examples where the female characters pointed out the 'real' desire or need in the male characters too.

That is the problem with taking plot devices in isolation.

As part of a bigger picture of young adults carving out a future in an extraordinarily rich city without much help from parents, after the previous excess of the 80's, during a nineties recession, replacing blood family with friends, in a more liberal environment

  • it's pretty interesting.

As social commentary it's a very interesting phenomenon.

Original poster
darleneoconnor · 07/05/2011 21:35

There are loads of 'fuck off' posts on MN. I've had them directed at me but I take it on the chin and dont go crying to MNmummie.

OP posts:
JoanofArgos · 07/05/2011 21:35

Darlene, really? How bonkers!

She doesn't go for a baby with Richard because she doesn't want him being a martyr about it, I think? And because the long-term script was not going to have her sprogging with an old old man.

She waits for marriage because she holds to the fairy tale ending that you have babies with the man who walks you down the aisle.

AND ANOTHER THING - the men are all turned on by lesbian sex. The women use this when it suits them. Monica and Rachel argue, but never unattractively - they just flick at each other's foreheads, or roll about looking fit.

NettoSuperstar · 07/05/2011 21:35

The way Monica was written, it was plain for everyone to see she really wanted marriage and a family, and the sperm donor thing was a rash decision.

The way I saw it was Joey saying to hold out for what she really wanted.

And you were censored for rudely telling me to fuck off, twice.

I didn't say Friends was a feminist show, but I think you're seeing some things that just aren't there.

swiperstopswiping · 07/05/2011 21:36

Rachel is shown as sloppy and lazy when it comes to clearing up the apartment. In one episode she's wearing rubber gloves pretending to wash up but reading instead.

By that token women not wanting to clean is normalised because it's in a television show.

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