Ways the TV series 'Friends' was anti-feminist

[darleneoconnor]

comes from another thread

-There are lots of references to porn, which totally normalises it

• The women are unhealthily skinny
• The 'fat Monica' running joke
• Joey's womanising
• Phoebe being used as a womb for hire
• Monica was riddiculed for dating someone 7 years younger than her but it was ok for Ross to date someone 10 years younger then him
• All the girls' desire to get married (especially Monica's bridzillaness), as opposed to the boys
• the anti-single mother rant Monica had at her wedding
• Rachel's birth was very medicalised and disempowering (but in context of USA healthcare system I suppose)
• Chandler having to be 'taught' how to have a relationship
• Monicas getting slagged off for having 'lots' of lovers
• In the episode where Rachel, Phoebe and Joey make an issue of earning less than the others no-one mentions the gender split
• They do quite gender-specific jobs, Monica/cooking, Joey/acting (which is 2/3 male), Ross/Paleontologist, Phoebe/massuese, Rachel/waitress/fashion buyer, Chandler/IT(?)
• they get a stripper for a stag do then glamourise it by her saying how well she is paid
• Ross's homophobia and his lack of equal parenting of his child
• Monica's obsession with cleaning
• the rich Monica and Chandler adopting the babies of someone too poor to keep them herself
• Chandler pretending to watch tv so he doesn't have to do his fair share of the thanksgiving cooking
• The football game where Rachel is a 'useless' girl, Phoebe flashes her breasts to win a point and Monica is ridiculed for being as competitive as the boys

I'm sure there's more...

The West Wing is male dominated, naturally, but does have a lot of strong female characters, CJ Cregg becomes Chief of Staff and makes a big deal when the administration do a deal with a repressive middle eastern country, Ainsley Hayes is v smart, the politics are very liberal and pro choice.

And Andy, Toby's ex wife, having his babies on her own, and facing down the criticism when she gets PG while in office.

I think we need a whole thread about Sex and the City! In fact I am going to start one...

Ihavewellies- this is an explicitly FEMINIST thread about Friends. If you want a non-feminist discussion there is one in telly addicts. I did not start this to debate with ignorant people whether friends is sexist/ anti-feminist. IT IS. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you havent read alot of the feminist threads on here- they often get de-railed by anti-feminists coming on with an agenda which distracts from the feminist discussion the rest of us are trying to have. The rest of the internet is there for you anti-feminists to play in. Go there if that's what you want. All we want is this tiny corner of cyberspace where we are free to express our feminst opinions without constantly being interupted and having to justify our existence.

However I will respond to your post-

"I'm sure you find ant-feminist things anywhere if you look hard enough. A lot of these don't seem right imo

• The women are unhealthily skinny- *Never thought of them as unhealthy but kind of agree on this one, esp Jennifer Aniston [it is unhealthy to have a BMI below 18, which is what JA and CC look like]
• The 'fat Monica' running joke- yes but wasn't there Brad Pitt as a previously fat man or is this not the same? [fat is a feminist issue- go read Susie Orbach]
• Joey's womanising- Phoebes manising before Mike is equally accepted [Phoebe did not 'sleep with girls then never call them back' as some kind of hobby the way Joey did]
• Phoebe being used as a womb for hire- She did it for her brother, not sure whats wrong with this, wasn't Joey a sperm donor [she risked her life to be a human incubator, for a brother she'd met twice]
• Monica was riddiculed for dating someone 7 years younger than her but it was ok for Ross to date someone 10 years younger then him- Ross was ridiculed for going out with Elizabeth and the only reason he wasn't fired was because he saw Bruce Willis dancing in the mirror! Monica was also dating a teenager where as Ross was dating an adult. Frank and Alison's relationship was initially questioned but eventually accepted despite age gap. [Ethan was 18, an adult last time I checked. IMO is is much more icky for a 30 yo teacher to knowingly shag his 20yo female pupil than for Monica to sleep with a man once, who she thought was 21 but then didn't sleep with again after she found out his true age]
• All the girls' desire to get married (especially Monica's bridzillaness), as opposed to the boys- What about Ross' desire to get married. Also doesn't Phoebe have a lot of doubts [Ross didn't have a huge desire to get married. he married emily so she could stay in NY. It was Rachel's idea for them to get married. No, Phoebe wanted to get married so much she broke up with Mike when he said he didn't want to]
• the anti-single mother rant Monica had at her wedding- don't remember this may have to look it up
• Rachel's birth was very medicalised and disempowering (but in context of USA healthcare system I suppose)- Not sure I'd go as far as to say disempowering, perhaps she wanted a very medicalised birth [who wants to give birth with their feet in styrupps? and have lots of unecessary VEs?]
• Chandler having to be 'taught' how to have a relationship- Don't a lot of his relationship problems stem from his parents divorce? [yes, blame the mother parents ]
• Monicas getting slagged off for having 'lots' of lovers- I think she gets mocked a bit (as does Joey) but not 'slagged off', again what about Phoebe's relationships [Joey having lots of lovers isn't portrayed as a 'bad thing' as it is with Monica]
• In the episode where Rachel, Phoebe and Joey make an issue of earning less than the others no-one mentions the gender split- Is there a gender spilt in this situation, there are other factors, Rachel just moving to the city, Joey's choice of profession, Phoebe's chaotic early life/lack of education [ OMG do I have to explain the gender pay gap to you aswell? Rachel didn't give up another job to move to the city. She had been living off her parents and was about to be living off her husband. If you cant see the gender discrepancy here you are blind! Joey's low pay isn't gender specific and he does end up v rich. Phoebe is in a female-dominated low pay sector. as an uneducated/unskilled worker the job opportunities open to her are more low paid than the equivalent 'male' ones eg trades. Ross got lots of parental encouragement to do well academically and had a nice wife to tend to him during his early career. Chandler sold out to make a buck- something women are less likely to do. Monica's job may be male dominated (is it?) but catering is low paid, insecure (she loses her job at the end of the episode) and involves unchildfriendly hours which me women eventually drop out and have to start again.]
• They do quite gender-specific jobs, Monica/cooking, Joey/acting (which is 2/3 male), Ross/Paleontologist, Phoebe/massuese, Rachel/waitress/fashion buyer, Chandler/IT(?)- Again other factors, and Chef I would say is male dominated
• they get a stripper for a stag do then glamourise it by her saying how well she is paid- don't remember this, wasn't there also a male stripper?
• Ross's homophobia and his lack of equal parenting of his child- I wouldn't say that he is homophobic but uncomfortable because of his own issues with his masculinity (which he admits to Sandy the nanny come from his Dad). His uncomfortableness about Susan and Carol came from the fact she was his ex-wife. [ I think there was some anti-lesbianism in there too]
• Monica's obsession with cleaning- Is shown as an obsession not a norm for women [by having it on a tv show it normalises it]
• the rich Monica and Chandler adopting the babies of someone too poor to keep them herself- Wasn't she also v young, and they weren't that rich [she wasn't 14/15 more like 19-23- what's wrong with women of that age having babies? They were rich by then. Chandler had a huge amount in savings he used towards the wedding. They were buying a big detached house in a posh suburb.]
• Chandler pretending to watch tv so he doesn't have to do his fair share of the thanksgiving cooking- He hates thanksgiving because of his parents divorce and him throwing it up as a child, he doesn't want to be in the same room as thanksgiving stuff! Phoebe doesn't want to help either but Will does I think. [He was in the same room! Phoebe is a guest, why should she be cooking? Chandler was just being a lazy git and reinforcing the 'women belong by the kitchen sink' stereotype]
• The football game where Rachel is a 'useless' girl, Phoebe flashes her breasts to win a point and Monica is ridiculed for being as competitive as the boys- Chandler is also useless and Ross is mocked for being competitive. The other boys aren't really competitive, its a Geller thing" [Chandler didnt wander off to the shops. The boys are all v competitive]

SATC thread here C'mon, I used the word archetype in my op

Laurie, I agree, it was just one that I have watched recently that I didn't switch off because I couldn't get past the meh-ness of the female stereotypes. Although that is pretty much confined to Alicia but I love the fact that the character is complex and that is a rare thing to see on tv in a female part. Even in The Wire, which had some great female roles, those characters are not nearly as developed as some of the male ones.

I am mindful of not falling into the trap of expecting a level of perfection in women that I would not expect from men and that goes for fictional ones as well as real life. A bit like the "can you be a feminist if you shave your legs?" question.

ER was good for strong female roles with only a little sterotyping.

"All we want is this tiny corner of cyberspace where we are free to express our feminst opinions without constantly being interupted and having to justify our existence."

Excuse me but there are dedicated Feminist Forums, why shouldn't other Mumsnet members join the debate? I don't always check the section before I join in a thread and neither should I. I resent being told to "Fuck off" if I don't instantly agree.

darleneoconnor you seem to be talking me out of agreeing with you with your last post. I see lots of unfeminist stances in Friends but you are going too far IMO.

And you really cannot dictate what people talk about in a thread. It's a shame that you don't invite discussion because discussing a programme that so many people have seen can help open eyes to things they may not have noticed before. But refusing to 'allow' other opinions will make them leave the thread, and that chance is lost.

Actually Darlene, I think you've raised an interesting series of points, but you could give a little here. I agree with most of what you've said, but not all of it, and I don't see why you should get carte blanche here just because you've told people they should fuck off if they don't agree with you.

I think most people are saying, yes, it is pretty anti feminist. I thought about friends a few weeks ago after all the porn threads and it struck me then how normalised porn was in the show.

BUT - you need to accept that some of your points aren't black and white - your dogged determination that no, a fictional character was infertile because of her AGE, she's fictional, no one knows. You can't just decide that she had a certain condition because of x, y and z.

Why not let people discuss things, instead of TELLING people that it's exactly the way you interpreted it?

You know the first rule of Fight Club is you do NOT talk about Fight Club?

The first rule of the Feminism Topic is that you do NOT disagree with the feminists. I learnt that a long time ago, which is why I mostly lurk these days.

For example, this really makes no sense in the context of the thread:

• Monica's obsession with cleaning- Is shown as an obsession not a norm for women [by having it on a tv show it normalises it]

By that token, if having it on a TV show normalises it then it's normal for:

• a woman to leave her husband when pregnant and raise her child with another woman;
• a woman to be a surrogate to her long-lost brother's children;
• a man to say the name of the wrong woman at his wedding ceremony.

None of those things are seen as normal or typical. Friends hasn't normalised things - why on earth would you claim that it has?

No, the first rule of the feminism topic is that we will discuss things from a feminist perspective. People coming on giving the usual, bog-standard non-feminist view, will be given short shrift because as Darlene so rightly points out, we can read that everhwhere else on t'internet and in the media. People asking questions is fine. People telling us to STFU and stop analysing stuff from a feminist perspective, FGS can't we give it a rest, can fuck the fuck off.

• Chandler having to be 'taught' how to have a relationship- Don't a lot of his relationship problems stem from his parents divorce? [yes, blame the mother parents ]

Seriously? Someone says blame the parents and you hear blame the mother? That is YOUR interpretation. And from what I can remember of friends the parent bashing on Chandler's part seems to be focused on his father.

I don't think I agree with Darlene about Monica's cleaning obsession either.

OMG is everyone going to get confused, 2 feminists disagreeing with each other? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh, watch the heads exploding!

Darlene, Darlene, Darlene, oops didn't expect that reaction

I think its quite shocking that you don't want to have a discussion about the issues you raise in your OP. You say that you didn't start this to have a debate and you say that 'It just is'. Seems a bit silly and unfair imo. This is a discussion forum, you are allowed to discuss things. Or so I thought until I came here. This is my first time on a feminist mn thread and I'm not sure if I'll come back, may have an explore though. You are right I am quite ignorant about feminist issues but how am I going to learn when I am not allowed to discuss things but am just told that Darlene O'Connor's word is law and we should all just agree with her? Surely thats not feminism?

If its anything its DarleneO'Connorism, and thats not going to be such a hit I don't think

I never said I would or told anyone to fuck off for disagreeing!

I welcome debate (otherwise why would i have started hundreds of MN threads?) but there is a difference between people having different opinions and feminist threads frequently getting derailed by anti-feminists with an agenda.

Feminists shouldn't have to be continually justifying their beliefs just to get the opportunity to talk to other feminists.

I'll happily accept that some of the examples are more black and white than others, but it's all food for thought.

The MN feminist section is much more active than any other feminist forum I've found. You can hardly have a debate if you have to wait 2 days for a single reply! There is high traffic here, of both feminists and non-feminists, both of whom are welcome. It's the anti-feminists (like that Andre on the documentary thread) who ruin it for everyone.

Darlene wants to talk about the ways in which Friends is anti-feminist - not whether or not it is. It's a space to interrogate and explore those aspects of the show: lots of us obviously still found enough parts of it funny to keep watching! That;s not the issue.

Great.

Can we return to your point, then, that by showing something on a TV show you normalise it?

Because, as I've said, there were lots of things on Friends that haven't been normalised. So how can you claim the Monica-cleaning thing as anti-women?

I haven't seen any anti-feminists on this thread

I know I'm a feminist but there's no or anything.

It's a discussion in the feminist topic, I'm sure there are plenty of feminists here who are interested in the discussion.

Monica's cleaning is normalised because it's viewed as mildly annoying but not mental: hence Chandler saying 'you;re gonna put sweats on and clean, aren't you?' .... it's a thing that's expected, that's her quirky little girly way.

Ihave wellies- I dont want to discourage genuine people from these threads but if you read through them you will soon find the mysogynistic derailers my disclaimer was aimed at.

Swiper-On the normalisation- have you been away with bin laden for 10 years or has the Civil Partnership Act and the rise of surrogacy passed you by?

The fact that it is a female character who is obsessed with cleaning is reinforcing a damaging stereotype.

I am shocked Dittany and I expressed it earlier, though I'm sure it is common in the writers room as it is in every profession.

AFAIR, Monica couldn't have children because both she and Chandler had fertility problems. Age was never mentioned as being the problem.

Yes, Dittany, I meant to say thanks for that link.

Laurie- I'd like to think I've scared them off! But it's maybe just lucky timing.