Ways the TV series 'Friends' was anti-feminist

[darleneoconnor]

comes from another thread

-There are lots of references to porn, which totally normalises it

• The women are unhealthily skinny
• The 'fat Monica' running joke
• Joey's womanising
• Phoebe being used as a womb for hire
• Monica was riddiculed for dating someone 7 years younger than her but it was ok for Ross to date someone 10 years younger then him
• All the girls' desire to get married (especially Monica's bridzillaness), as opposed to the boys
• the anti-single mother rant Monica had at her wedding
• Rachel's birth was very medicalised and disempowering (but in context of USA healthcare system I suppose)
• Chandler having to be 'taught' how to have a relationship
• Monicas getting slagged off for having 'lots' of lovers
• In the episode where Rachel, Phoebe and Joey make an issue of earning less than the others no-one mentions the gender split
• They do quite gender-specific jobs, Monica/cooking, Joey/acting (which is 2/3 male), Ross/Paleontologist, Phoebe/massuese, Rachel/waitress/fashion buyer, Chandler/IT(?)
• they get a stripper for a stag do then glamourise it by her saying how well she is paid
• Ross's homophobia and his lack of equal parenting of his child
• Monica's obsession with cleaning
• the rich Monica and Chandler adopting the babies of someone too poor to keep them herself
• Chandler pretending to watch tv so he doesn't have to do his fair share of the thanksgiving cooking
• The football game where Rachel is a 'useless' girl, Phoebe flashes her breasts to win a point and Monica is ridiculed for being as competitive as the boys

I'm sure there's more...

Chandler having to be 'taught' how to have a relationship- Don't a lot of his relationship problems stem from his parents divorce? [yes, blame the mother parents

Yes and of course both his parents are women.

Somebody, way back, mentioned that Monica and Richard broke up over the fact that he didn't want children (despite the fact that he said he would, reluctantly). I thought that was actually one of the stronger plot lines i.e. Monica recognising that Richard didn't want children, that it was a no compromise situation and having the courage to finish it and move on with her life. I thought that was quite a good message to send out to women - when a man tells you what he is like/wants, believe him.

I think that the Chandler being "taught" how to have a relationship, was quite sexist (and nothing to do with his parents). Monica also had a pretty unhappy/disfunctional childhood yet she didn't need to be taught how to have a relationship. You see it all over MN that men need to be "taught" to do this that and the other yet women just know how to do these things innately?? It's just playing into that stereotype.

Another thing that irritated me is that after Rachel beame pregnant, Ben was never seen again. Up until that point there had always been at least one token appearance by him each season. I'm not sure if this is necessarily a feminist point, but it does seem to be a reflection of the experiences of many women whose children are abandoned by their fathers once their new childen come along. Particularly annoying as in these seasons Ross continued to refer to himself as a good father.

If you are seeing Friends as realistic, remember you are only seeing 1/2 an hour a week of their 'lives'.

So Ross could be seeing his son lots.

I think the children thing isn't relevant, due to the fact that it is a TV show and difficulties of employing children.

But that 1/2 hour isn't filmed in real time, it is designed to show a cross section of the stories going on in their lives. Of course Ross could be seeing him lots, but then why bother ever showing him before? In the last few seasons its as if he no longer exists.

Also - Rachel's work environment. Her boss, Joanna, is bitchy, sneaky, ultimately insecure, and - importantly - considered not good enough for Chandler due to being 'really dull' and 'having mascara goop' in the corner of her eye.

Despite being a powerful, important woman, Joanna is floored by Chandler's failure to call her, and it does not occur to her to call him. The other women agree that guys don't call you when they say they will, and this is the normal way of things: not the guy's fault.

Sophie suggests that Chandler may be intimidated by strong, succesful women, and is told to 'climb out of my ass' by Joanna, who - being female, natch - has an irrational, bitchy dislike of Sophie, but favours Rachel.

Also the bit where Rachel tries to come back to work after having Emma, but I don't have time to deconstruct that now!

zacharyquack i agree with you, i - as a non feminist - was really enjoying this thread, in a way that it was opening up my mind to feminism, unfortunately the OP has only succeeded in magnifying the stereotype of the 'irrational feminist'.

It started off so well.... and the OP needs to realise that a thread is not derailed just because people disagree with you.

However it seems to be getting back on track now.

I do however agree with the message the OP initially sent out (before you went all bonkers) the show is mindless crap. I enjoy watching it for that reason but it is interesting as I see my sister in the characters of Rachel's sisters (ie spoilt!) and funnily enough she loves the show! She is the worst case scenario of the 'anti-feminist' though.

What Summerbird73 said. The only person who derailed the thread was the OP and her megalomanic obsession with dictating what other people could and couldn't write. It's as if freedom of speech just passed her right by

Mascara goop is pretty yucky tho. For me I think I stopped watching Friends during the series where Monica and Chandler got together. She was often depicted as controlling and shrill. His character, who was my favorite initially, became submissive and in fact boring tbh. They all started to unravel. Initially I could laugh along and enjoy it for the gentle comedy it was, but Rachel became too vain, Ross just pathetic and whiney, Chandler lost his spark, Joey was more and more cliched and sexist, Monica got too infantile as did Phoebe. The innocence of their personas was lost and they did become stereotypes of their own characters. I find it interesting though that people (generally) refer to RL friends as a "Monica" or a "Rachel".

wow thank you cowardlylion i never thought someone would agree with me on a feminist thread i am usually too shit scared to post on here

It is perhaps not a feminist perspective but I hated the attitude towards parenting.
Ross's woeful connection with Ben.
The whole surrogacy thing with only mild feelings associated with it.
The zero impact and frequent disapearance of baby Emma.
Didn't they lose someone's baby on the bus or come back with the wrong one or something? I just couldn't find that funny.

I was gobsmacked when Friends and Sex and the City both ended that the finales showed such a similar range of options.
Paris - no good, don't bother.
Adopting - easy way to get a baby.
The guy that has messed you around forever really loves you and proves it by making a dramatic gesture involving a plane. This means that you will be happy ever after.
The most stable couple gets to buy a house in the suburbs and worry that they will no longer be cool.

Yes, I think it was Chandler & Joey taking Ben as baby to the park as a way of 'picking up chicks'. They hilariously were taken for a gay couple by the women they were trying to pick up and lost the baby on the bus home.

Oh yes - and re. the move to the suburbs, Chandler cynically manipulates Janice into moving elsewhere by pretending to be in love with her still, which both upsets her and actually disrupts her life and plans!

The Ross/Ben thing. I don't think they showed him as a bad parent, because we were supposed to assume they saw lots of each other off screen and he was a good Dad?

Mind you, I hated the Paris thing in both programmes, and how both women suddenly came home because of a guy, in fact Carrie went there for a guy as well as leaving again for one. Ugh.

There was such a lot to assume about Ross. What we saw was a nasty immature self centred manipulative manchild. What we had to assume was a meaningful academic career and a good relationship with his son. I couldn't make that leap.

He did have the career though, which is probably why I accept the good Dad thing too.

Parenthood is rarely displayed realistically in programmes like Friends though, or the soaps I watch for that matter. I kinda just accept what they tell me about their parenting skills!

I see Ross is getting criticised but not his wife.

She has an affair, gets pregnant by Ross and then tells him she's going to raise their child with her new partner.

And somehow she managed to completely change her appearance it was almost as if she was a different person.

The whole Paris storyline is ridiculous imo. She was going to move and take her child who would therefore have very little contact with her Dad but Ross and Rachel were more concerned about leaving each other rather than on the impact on their child. Not sure if this is anti-feminism though or just silly.

I don't think Ross was really a bad parent, we just don't see many scenes where he is with Ben but he is mentioned often. I think part of this is because of laws relating to child actors in USA. I also think that initially Ross was quite shut out by Carol and Susan from the pregnancy so perhaps he did well to continue to have contact with Ben.

Wasn't it considered quite ground-breaking for 'friends' to show the civil partnership/marriage (not sure what its called on US) of Susan and Carol (this was mid 90s). Is this a good thing for Feminism?

I agree about that aspect of the Paris story, it always annoyed me that Ross doesn't seem bothered that his daughter is being taken to another country.

As far as Susan and Carol being ground-breaking though, it's off-set a bit by the fact that Susan is such a cowbag, in my opinion.

YY to the criticism of Friends and parenting. But that applies to practically every programme ever doesn't it. I think either because writers are currently childless or someone else is doing most of the parenting of their children for them so they aren't really that clued up about parenting issues. Call me cycnical.