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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mother / Wife roles

78 replies

motherwife · 03/05/2011 14:16

Apologies in advance: this is an epic.

Background is this: I have been married for 10 years. I am quite a happy person, but I sometimes struggle to appreciate my marriage. I want to keep the family together though, because I believe it's best for all of us, not just the children. Also, I remember the "better or worse, sickness and in health, richer and poorer" bits from my wedding vows and consider a promise to be a promise. I can't bear the thought of not being able to see my children every other weekend, and miserable handovers at Christmas and birthdays.

My main struggle is the crossover between the role of mother and of wife. Or perhaps of mother and of lover. My DH is a good person. He works hard at his job and we both have the same views on spending and finances. We have the same educational background. I am currently on Maternity Leave but have a similarly paid job (although I get less as I work part time). I resent my DH frequently, because he appears to put so little effort into the housework. This sounds trivial, and probably is.

In the morning, I get up at 6.30, and get the kids their breakfast, and ready for school. This has always been the case, even when I've been working. DH comes down a bit later when he wakes up, switches on the computer and has breakfast in front of it. Our mornings don't really overlap except for a kiss goodbye when he goes to work or I leave for the school run. When he returns from work, he usually helps me by putting the older children to bed, which takes 20 minutes or so. Then he is on the computer, or out, until dinner. Our division of effort is that he is responsible for the kitchen. I cook dinner, and do the other chores, and he spends 10-20 minutes after dinner tidying things up. He doesn't wipe the surfaces or clean the floor, and doesn't wipe the table ready for breakfast as he doesn't notice these things. He doesn't put bottles in the containers for recycling because he forgets. He doesn't wash anything "complicated".

At weekends, I get the kids up on a Saturday as they have a club in the morning, and give them breakfast before taking them out and looking after them until lunchtime. I cook lunch. Sometimes, I ask DH to hold the baby for a bit while I am making lunch. After lunch, he likes to "let the meal go down" so I tend to clean up while he relaxes in front of the computer or the newspapers before I reading the papers, when I've finished. I sometimes ask him to help with this, and in the past he has said that he'll do it later. So I have sometimes left things, and sat surrounded by crumbs and lunch leftovers and dishes on the table and read the paper. I don't really like doing this. Often "later" means last thing at night or "tomorrow" or "I've been too busy to do it" so I do it myself. I realise that this is a personal choice, and I am allowing myself to be a matyr / doormat / whatever here. On a Saturday afternoon, he might take the older kids out for a walk while I look after the baby at home, or we might go out together. Evenings are the same as weekday evenings, with him doing a little in the kitchen last thing at night.

Sundays are pretty similar - I take responsibility for the kids all morning, and he usually gets involved in the afternoon.

DH frequently puts his work trousers into the washing bin late on Sunday and asks me to get them ready for the morning. He wears tatty clothes and when he shaves, often forgets to rinse the hairs out of the sink. He needs to be asked to take the bins out on the day the rubbish is collected. He needs to be asked not to use the washing up brush to scrub mud off his boots. He has no idea what DS1 has in his packed lunch or school bag, or what uniform he needs to wear. Our youngest child is 6m old. DH has changed 6 nappies maybe. He doesn't like doing it, and says that he finds the first year very stressful. If the children cry, he tends to snap at them, and if DC3 doesn't calm down quickly when he picks her up, he'll hand her to me, telling me how much he hates the baby phase.

DH needs his sleep, and often takes daytime naps. I resent this hugely. I get little sleep as I deal with the baby, and often the older children, during the night. DH always sleeps in longer than me in the morning and at weekends can and does spend the whole morning in bed on occasion. DH occasionally asks me to wake him after half an hour, or wake him at 8 in the morning, and if he doesn't wake until 8.30 or something asks me why I didn't wake him in time for work. I know this is churlish of me to refuse this small act of cooperation, but I want him to be able to take responsibility for waking up at the right time. He has an alarm clock.

I don't mind that I deal with the children most of the time. I do mind that I do the lions share of the housework, including all the little fiddly tasks that he "doesn't notice". Our house is not clean or tidy by most people's standards - I do what I can to stop it being actively festering or gross. He doesn't notice the mud all over the hall, or the spills on the kitchen worktops, or the grot all over the carpet, or the toys all over the living room. On the rare occasions I can persuade him to help with a job - say the garden - he often starts but doesn't finish, or does the job and leaves the tools and mess where it is.

He used to have hobbies and a circle of friends. He says that he doesn't go out cycling any more because he doesn't have the time, but I have pointed out that he could have the whole day to himself at any day of the weekend and that would be fine. And it genuinely would be - I think it would be good for him to get some "me time" that wasn't in front of the computer or in bed.

We recently had a night away as a family - we stayed in a youth hostel and DH didn't sleep very well. In the morning, he was unpleasant and bullying to the children, and continued being grumpy and sour all day. This continued the next day, and he explained that he found it stressful being cooped up with the family.

I've painted a picture of dysfunctionality here. My DH is not a monster, and can be kind and considerate to me and the children. My struggle is that I feel forced into the role of mother to him, when all I really want is to be his wife. I enjoy being mother to my children, but I fear that my DH adopting the role of my fourth "child" will repeat itself in the next generation: my sons will grow up unable to function as independent adults, giving their own wives the shitty end of the stick at every opportunity, seeing it as a woman's role to do pretty much everything. I fear that my DD will think it's normal for a woman to do everything, and she will choose a husband who treats her like this too. Please don't tell me to leave him: I don't want to do this, I want to make it work. I just need some advice on how to shift from the mother role to the wife role when it comes to DH, and get him to take some responsibility for himself.

OP posts:
SueSylvesterforPM · 03/05/2011 15:15

go on 'wife strike' and he may get a bolt up his arse.

SybilBeddows · 03/05/2011 15:19

sorry for the short reply, but he is completely taking the piss.

you need to stop doing it. Go away for a bit if he doesn't take any notice. If he won't do his share of everything else, don't wash his clothes. Don't cook for him. Let him have dirty trousers for work on Monday morning (I was Shock at that bit.)

noodle69 · 03/05/2011 15:25

Well I wouldnt do most of what you have written on this list tbh with my husband.

  • I have been married for 7 years but I dont iron my husbands clothes or make him packed lunches.

-There is also no way on earth I would cook him dinner every night!

  • You also have no way enough free time I get at least 1 night out a week where I usually go out for food and/or drinks with my mates. I have 1 lie in a weekend for as long as I want.
  • Also so what if the dishes got done tomorrow as long as he does them. I dont care and if it was me I would leave them until he did them if it was his turn.

You might not want to leave him but he is treating you like a doormat and you are standing for it. Dont make him dinner, dont tidy up after him and go out and socialise with your mates/family lots more. If he doesnt like it tell him he knows where the door is.

Insomnia11 · 03/05/2011 15:35

he spends 10-20 minutes after dinner tidying things up. He doesn't wipe the surfaces or clean the floor, and doesn't wipe the table ready for breakfast as he doesn't notice these things. He doesn't put bottles in the containers for recycling because he forgets. He doesn't wash anything "complicated".

I will just print this bit out for DH...Hmm

This morning it wasn't even his turn to get the girls ready - I was feeling rubbish as I didn't sleep well so he got their breakfasts and dressed the little one. Likewise I will help out getting the girls ready for bed tonight even though it's not my "turn". It's a partnership, and barring the odd issue (see above) it works pretty well.

I think you need to write down every task that needs doing - include garden maintenance and car maintenance if you have them, and the frequency each task needs doing, then decide who will do it or have a rota system.

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 03/05/2011 15:51

Throughout the OP you make excuses for him. Do you think he would afford you the same excuses if you behaved like that e.g. sulked for 2 days, did no housework or childcare? His sense of entitlement is immense. How do think he would react if you didn't do his laundry/ironing/cooking and he had to do these himself?

Despite saying he is, you have offered no evidence of how he is kind and considerate to you or your children - the opposite in fact. What do you actually want the end conclusion to be? Because you know you can't change a person - they have to do that themselves.

snowmama · 03/05/2011 16:03

sorry OP, I am with the others - you have to stop doing all of those things.

It is very far away from being trivial, and it is totally unfair on you. You talk about shifting from mother to 'wife' role - which I am still a bit uncomfortable with - but actually the biggest shift has to come from him. He has to start respecting you as a person.

I am sorry.

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 03/05/2011 16:09

Yes I am uncomfortable with "wife" role too. Surely emotional support, love and respect is your responsibility as his partner - which is what you are doing anyway. He is the one not doing the respecting, support or much love by the sounds of it.

You also appear to be structuring your weekend days around him rather than what you and your children need or want. Why is that? And do you not feel you deserve some "me time" as you don't appear to be getting much at the moment?

dittany · 03/05/2011 17:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

darleneoconnor · 03/05/2011 17:56

Right, YOU KNOW THIS IS WRONG AND HAS TO STOP otherwise you wouldn't have written the OP.

It IS going to be very difficult to dig yourself out of these bad habits and you have to accept that he may never change and that somewhere down the line you will have to think of plan D.

How old are the DCs? Have they commented on your roles in the house?You are right that you and your DH are setting a very bad example for them.

He should be ashamed of himself for treating you with such little respect and he's kidding himself if he thinks that he's a good dad.

You said he bullied your DCs- in what way? Does he bully you?

Have you ever tried 'going on strike'?

Does he know how you feel about this?

You mention that he spends a lot of time on the computer- what is he doing? Is there porn/a possible affair going on? Is he addicted to gaming etc?

What happens when you are sick, does he cover or is it chaos?

Maybe you should email him this thread?

blackcurrants · 03/05/2011 18:23

Housework and issues surrounding housework are anything but trivial.
I highly, highly reccomend you read the politics of housework

And either chart exactly what you do for him/the house/ the dcs every day, by Task, time taken, and who for - and have a Very Serious Chat about what you want and deserve (equal leisure time, a good example for the DCs about marriage and partnership, being treated like a human being who deserves respect and not a domestic appliance with a vagina) AND IF THIS CONVERSATION DOESN'T HAVE IMPACT stop doing everything you do for him. At once.

This is really bad.

lemonsquish · 03/05/2011 18:35

What everyone else said. Marriage should be an equal partnership, this isn't equal is it?

madwomanintheattic · 03/05/2011 19:24

i always recommend going away for a weekend and leaving the father to bond with his children. every month if possible. and developing occasional activities that ensure you get to do non mother/ wife stuff in order that he can fully develop his skills as a father/ husband. find a long lost realtive or old school friend that needs a visit - preferably covering a few week-days as well.

the longer you leave it, the more difficult it is. and the more you will resent the way you live your life.

he probably genuinely doesn't 'see' a lot of things. but by forcing him to step up to the plate and experience the joys of fatherhood, laundry, getting himself out of bed (Hmm) and being, oh, y'know, responsible for the running of the daily grind, he might pick it up fairly quickly.

presumably, if he was asked to articulate the role of the father/ husband it would revolve solely around sleeping and earning a wage.

it's not really being a father or husband, is it?

TotallyUtterlyDesperate · 03/05/2011 20:36

He's not acting like a partner in your relationship at all, but kind of forcing you to be a kind of stereotypical 1950's "mother" to him. My DH and I have always shared the household and parenting tasks through a range of scenarios:

*When first married with no kids.
*After kids, I was SAHM and he worked full-time.
*Youngest started school - he worked full-time and I worked part-time.
*DH then lost his job and retired through ill-health to become SAHD and I worked full-time.

The balance of child-care/housework/cooking/shopping/gardening probably swings about from DH to me over the years, but generally we have shared everything. Particularly in terms of who does things the best - he is the best shopper and cook, for example, so I have taken on the washing/ironing/gardening. If one of us has felt unfairly put-upon - we have always talked about it and adjusted accordingly. As the DSs had grown up (now 18 and 21), they have taken on some tasks too. So, no-one is in the position of the OP where they feel exploited.

When the DSs were young, we also had turns about lie-ins etc at weekends to make sure we both had rest times. I went out on a couple of evenings each week too - either out with friends or to evening classes.

I think you need to sit him down and talk about this properly and ask him what he sees as his role. Then clearly state your position! Good luck.

MrIC · 03/05/2011 21:14

one of my students had this problem with her partner (they don't have children but still). She presented him with a bill for all the things she did for him around the house. It gave him the needed kick up the arse.

If you'd like to try the same this blog should help you work out the going rate:
blogs.forbes.com/jennagoudreau/2011/05/02/why-stay-at-home-moms-should-earn-a-115000-salary/

blackcurrants · 04/05/2011 13:44

re-reading this thread I realise it might come across as rather overwhelming to the OP. Or, it might be just the validation she needs that no, she's not just being moaning, she's being taken for a ride by a lazy partner-who-isn't-a-partner.

Either way, I hope you're OK, OP, and things go/went well why you talk to your H about this.

sakura · 04/05/2011 13:54

"Wifework" by Susan Maushart is a good read. You won't see your marriage in the same light again!

Shannaratiger · 04/05/2011 14:02

I know what you mean Dp can't cook anything; work the washing machine, doesn't know where the kids clothes are, luckily they can get their own out now; teh dc's refuse to let him get their breakfast; has only made me a cup of tea a handful of times, we've been living together 7 years and no body ever remembers without reminding to put their dirty clothes in teh wash basket!
He does help with the washing up, and getting the clothes in off the line if I ask him but I'm just not very good at asking for help so he sits in front of the computer and I race around getting stressed and exhausted making my epilepsy and depression worse! Hmm

jigglebum · 04/05/2011 14:13

I think there is a tendency for these gender roles to become more entrenched with the arrival of children and with ML. I can relate to alot of what the OP says and have posted on here with similar moans before. People basically told me to either put up with it or leave as I couldn't chance him. I think there is a lot of truth in this but like the OP I value my marriage, although DH can drive me mad. I would be interested to hear of people who have managed to make it work and how.

My DH is good at equal childcare (when he is not at work) but rubbish at contributing to everyday household chores. He feels his role is to work and always stresses how hard he works (fairly hard but only 9-530 5 days a week!) and how much DIY he does (again he is great at this but this only happens at weekends a bit). He assumes as a SAHM I should do everything else - and he genuinely believes this and can't get his head around that he should help. He thinks there is plenty of time to clean, shop, cook etc and look after DS. To be fair, with one DS, I do have time, but can't help resenting the fact he does nothing to help and really does not feel he should as he is the "worker". Bank holiday monday I figured we were both at home, doing not a lot so wasn't my role to do the cooking anymore than his. Got DS and I lunch and left stuff out for him to do his own - petty but effective, despite the row. I did laugh when he couldn't work out how to turn on the grill! We have lived here for 6 months!

Now I have decided that although I will still do the bulk of the cooking, cleaning , washing etc as I am at home so do have more time, at weekends we will share cooking (as we used to pre DS) and he can do his own washing etc. He has not really agreed as yet - I have just told him! I am sure the sulk will end soon! So OP (sorry for hijacking) but I think you have to stand up to him more. And at weekend why don't you share the lie ins? We have one day each when the other gets up and one stays in bed until 930 ish.

Portofino · 04/05/2011 14:19

Lord, I've had a big argument with my dh about taking me for granted this week, and he sounds positively saintly compared to the OPs! Sad

Op, maybe you should show him this thread, or at least copy and paste what you wrote - it explains how you feel very well. If he is indeed "not a monster" then it might give him a bit of a jolt.

I was talking to dd about our talents. She told me she is good at singing and dancing. When I asked her what she thought I was good at, she said "Being a servant" Shock

Now my DH does his share of the household tasks - trouble is he does it when we are not there. It is only ME she sees in the evening doing this stuff. I have told discussed with DH that I don't want her to grow up with that message.

Op, I guess it doesn't matter whether you have girls or boys, it's a poor model for them that things are so unequal. Surely your DH would agree?

Bonsoir · 04/05/2011 14:25

"but I fear that my DH adopting the role of my fourth "child" will repeat itself in the next generation: my sons will grow up unable to function as independent adults, giving their own wives the shitty end of the stick at every opportunity, seeing it as a woman's role to do pretty much everything."

Your (D)H is a lazy slob with no morals. Why do you put up with it?

notenoughsocks · 04/05/2011 14:37

OP, when I first started reading your post, I thought it was an elaborate hoax. It was the lines like: "Sometimes, I ask DH to hold the baby for a bit while I am making lunch. After lunch, he likes to "let the meal go down" so I tend to clean up while he relaxes."

I think however you are serious. First, what blackcurrants said: HOUSEWORK IS NOT TRIVIAL. Try to get out of the habbit of thinking like that, or believing that you should (also, what MrIC said about billing him).

All this said though, it is fantastically hard in real life to deal with these issues. Especially when you are on maternity leave and you partner is at work. Everything about that situation is dictated by the expectation that you will carry the domestic responsiblities and he will 'go out' to work.

Even though me and my DP have reached a sort of good sharing pattern, it is still hard to make it work when faced with practicalities. I have found it really annoying, for example, that DP's work always seems to have priority over mine. For example, if DS is sick at nursery I will be the one who has to take off time to collect him and nurse him better. But the thing is that DP works miles away, he works in a traditonally masculine area where there simply isn't that sort of culture of flexibiltiy, and although his boss is quite 'understanding' there are limits. And it is also true to say that jobs are a bit thin on the ground at the moment so there is no room for principaled (spelling?) stands on the matter.

Sorry, just read that back and it is a bit of a ramble. What I am trying to say is that it can be very very difficult to break out of this kind of thing because the whole set-up is pretty much against it. If you can't face a full-on wife strike, perhaps you could engineer one - i.e. you have to urgently visit a needy friend. Or, little steps, like jiggle bum said.

He is taking the pi** though.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 04/05/2011 15:34

It's not trivial - this is hours and hours of your life that you are spending running around after him. He is a sleeping, complaining, bullying lump at the moment and unless he wants the children to grow up seeing him as a sort of unfriendly older brother he needs to pull his finger out. Have you spoken to him about what he is going to teach your kids about how to behave?

And jigglebum - expecting an able-bodied grown man to prepare food for himself is NOT petty, it is perfectly normal. He would die in the wild, that's for sure.

madwomanintheattic · 04/05/2011 15:54

shannaratiger -can't? does he have some form of disability that prevents him from managing to work a washing machine, oven or child? Hmm

can't is blatantly ridiculous, disability notwithstanding.

'doesn't' is the word you are looking for.

and if it isn't helping your mental health situation, i suggest you pop off for a few days and let him realise he is a fully functioning adult. laundry, cooking and childcare aren't rocket science. presuming he holds down a job, i'm darn sure he could cope quite adequately if he didn't have you slaving for him. he might like the idea of doing sweet fa, but he is perfectly capable of doing everything you do.

motherwife · 04/05/2011 17:27

food for thought - thank you. I think this is a vicious circle because the more I act like his mother, the less inclined I am to feel wifely, so the less respect I show him, and the less respect he shows me, and so on.

It's taken us ten years to get here so I don't think a wife strike would work (and in any case, I need to look after the baby as she is breastfed, so can't just go away for a bit.)

I asked him to wipe the surfaces last night, and he did. I asked him to sort out the fact that he'd left the kids' swimming towels (with all their swimming badges sewn on) at the pool on Monday and he said he would. I asked him to put his beer bottle into the recycling bin and he did. I haven't asked him to put his empty shower gel bottle into the recycling but have just put it on the edge of the bath next to his full bottle. The problem is that it would be a lot quicker to do a lot of this stuff myself rather than try to get him to do it, or remind him every single time and thus turn into a nag, but I resent being seen as (a) a domestic servant and (b) the recipient of "I'm far too cerebral to deal with this trivia, bless me, my mind's on other things" as actually, I'm quite bright too.

We will work on baby steps. I will have a look at the literature recommended on this page.

And to think, that as a teenager at my girls' school I used to laugh at feminism thinking that it was something from the dark ages (ironic emoticon).

OP posts:
madwomanintheattic · 04/05/2011 17:43

take the baby off to visit friends for the weekend and leave him with the older kids then. i bet you've got a few relatives that would love a new baby visit?

fwiw, i think it's harder for women whose expectation was that of equality to be smacked in the face with a working husband and two or three smallish children. it sort of creeps up on you because you genuinely believe you are exercising a choice and if you wanted life to be different it would be. and then. oh.

it'll be fine, but he really does need to remember that you are his equal, and that's what he loved about you, rather than (even subconsciously) giving you the 'i'm far too cerebral to deal with this trivia' look.

are you planning on going back to work later? it might be easier (from a division of resonsibility pov) to start getting him used to actually playing a part in the running of the household now - otherwise he's still going to be expecting you to fetch and carry and generally slave when you are working ft.

are you ok though? i know you said you don't want to split up etc, but even the mention of it in your op makes me think he doesn't really understand how serious this 'trivia' really is?