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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mother / Wife roles

78 replies

motherwife · 03/05/2011 14:16

Apologies in advance: this is an epic.

Background is this: I have been married for 10 years. I am quite a happy person, but I sometimes struggle to appreciate my marriage. I want to keep the family together though, because I believe it's best for all of us, not just the children. Also, I remember the "better or worse, sickness and in health, richer and poorer" bits from my wedding vows and consider a promise to be a promise. I can't bear the thought of not being able to see my children every other weekend, and miserable handovers at Christmas and birthdays.

My main struggle is the crossover between the role of mother and of wife. Or perhaps of mother and of lover. My DH is a good person. He works hard at his job and we both have the same views on spending and finances. We have the same educational background. I am currently on Maternity Leave but have a similarly paid job (although I get less as I work part time). I resent my DH frequently, because he appears to put so little effort into the housework. This sounds trivial, and probably is.

In the morning, I get up at 6.30, and get the kids their breakfast, and ready for school. This has always been the case, even when I've been working. DH comes down a bit later when he wakes up, switches on the computer and has breakfast in front of it. Our mornings don't really overlap except for a kiss goodbye when he goes to work or I leave for the school run. When he returns from work, he usually helps me by putting the older children to bed, which takes 20 minutes or so. Then he is on the computer, or out, until dinner. Our division of effort is that he is responsible for the kitchen. I cook dinner, and do the other chores, and he spends 10-20 minutes after dinner tidying things up. He doesn't wipe the surfaces or clean the floor, and doesn't wipe the table ready for breakfast as he doesn't notice these things. He doesn't put bottles in the containers for recycling because he forgets. He doesn't wash anything "complicated".

At weekends, I get the kids up on a Saturday as they have a club in the morning, and give them breakfast before taking them out and looking after them until lunchtime. I cook lunch. Sometimes, I ask DH to hold the baby for a bit while I am making lunch. After lunch, he likes to "let the meal go down" so I tend to clean up while he relaxes in front of the computer or the newspapers before I reading the papers, when I've finished. I sometimes ask him to help with this, and in the past he has said that he'll do it later. So I have sometimes left things, and sat surrounded by crumbs and lunch leftovers and dishes on the table and read the paper. I don't really like doing this. Often "later" means last thing at night or "tomorrow" or "I've been too busy to do it" so I do it myself. I realise that this is a personal choice, and I am allowing myself to be a matyr / doormat / whatever here. On a Saturday afternoon, he might take the older kids out for a walk while I look after the baby at home, or we might go out together. Evenings are the same as weekday evenings, with him doing a little in the kitchen last thing at night.

Sundays are pretty similar - I take responsibility for the kids all morning, and he usually gets involved in the afternoon.

DH frequently puts his work trousers into the washing bin late on Sunday and asks me to get them ready for the morning. He wears tatty clothes and when he shaves, often forgets to rinse the hairs out of the sink. He needs to be asked to take the bins out on the day the rubbish is collected. He needs to be asked not to use the washing up brush to scrub mud off his boots. He has no idea what DS1 has in his packed lunch or school bag, or what uniform he needs to wear. Our youngest child is 6m old. DH has changed 6 nappies maybe. He doesn't like doing it, and says that he finds the first year very stressful. If the children cry, he tends to snap at them, and if DC3 doesn't calm down quickly when he picks her up, he'll hand her to me, telling me how much he hates the baby phase.

DH needs his sleep, and often takes daytime naps. I resent this hugely. I get little sleep as I deal with the baby, and often the older children, during the night. DH always sleeps in longer than me in the morning and at weekends can and does spend the whole morning in bed on occasion. DH occasionally asks me to wake him after half an hour, or wake him at 8 in the morning, and if he doesn't wake until 8.30 or something asks me why I didn't wake him in time for work. I know this is churlish of me to refuse this small act of cooperation, but I want him to be able to take responsibility for waking up at the right time. He has an alarm clock.

I don't mind that I deal with the children most of the time. I do mind that I do the lions share of the housework, including all the little fiddly tasks that he "doesn't notice". Our house is not clean or tidy by most people's standards - I do what I can to stop it being actively festering or gross. He doesn't notice the mud all over the hall, or the spills on the kitchen worktops, or the grot all over the carpet, or the toys all over the living room. On the rare occasions I can persuade him to help with a job - say the garden - he often starts but doesn't finish, or does the job and leaves the tools and mess where it is.

He used to have hobbies and a circle of friends. He says that he doesn't go out cycling any more because he doesn't have the time, but I have pointed out that he could have the whole day to himself at any day of the weekend and that would be fine. And it genuinely would be - I think it would be good for him to get some "me time" that wasn't in front of the computer or in bed.

We recently had a night away as a family - we stayed in a youth hostel and DH didn't sleep very well. In the morning, he was unpleasant and bullying to the children, and continued being grumpy and sour all day. This continued the next day, and he explained that he found it stressful being cooped up with the family.

I've painted a picture of dysfunctionality here. My DH is not a monster, and can be kind and considerate to me and the children. My struggle is that I feel forced into the role of mother to him, when all I really want is to be his wife. I enjoy being mother to my children, but I fear that my DH adopting the role of my fourth "child" will repeat itself in the next generation: my sons will grow up unable to function as independent adults, giving their own wives the shitty end of the stick at every opportunity, seeing it as a woman's role to do pretty much everything. I fear that my DD will think it's normal for a woman to do everything, and she will choose a husband who treats her like this too. Please don't tell me to leave him: I don't want to do this, I want to make it work. I just need some advice on how to shift from the mother role to the wife role when it comes to DH, and get him to take some responsibility for himself.

OP posts:
annawintour · 05/05/2011 15:08

Oh Butterbur what a sad sad sad Sad Sad post!..

It is not too late.

Do something every day, one little thing to make you feel better. Go on a brisk walk, get some fresh air. You are young, you are alive. Go for it!

RibenaBerry · 05/05/2011 15:10

Butterbur - It is not too late for you at all. At mid-fifties, you could well have nearly half your adult life ahead of you. That's an awful lot of time to write off...

blackcurrants · 05/05/2011 15:20

motherwife how do you think your H would respond to a serious, calm conversation about how he treats you. Do you think he'd agree to go to Relate or something with you, or does he think everything is just peachy as it is?

porpoisefull · 05/05/2011 15:23

I think RibenaBerry's approach is the right one. Perhaps you could keep a diary for a week first? There are two things that spring out at me as Not Fair: how much leisure time and sleep you each get relative to work time and his failure to take responsibility for seeing things that need to be done and doing them.

Would he be bothered by the house being "actively festering or gross" if you stopped doing all that you do, OP?

HerBEggs · 05/05/2011 16:59

"I genuinely do not think that this is about getting him to 'do a bit more'. It's about changing a whole mindset and he needs to understand the stakes."

Nods vigorously, yes RB is right, this is about really having a serious discussion about this, making it very clear to him that it's not a question of him doing a bit more, it's about having a root and branch attitude revolution. Because it is about respect, make no mistake about it. As others have pointed out, he is too fucking GOOD to do the shitwork you do, but you, the woman he is supposed to cherish, love, value, esteem - you're fucking good enough to do shitwork, aren't you? And you don't need the same amount of leisure time as him, because you get off your arse and use your leisure time properly and productively.

Well sorry I know I said I'd try and post more constructively today, but the rage is rising on your behalf again. Why is this lack of respect all you deserve from the man who says he loves you? He's your husband FFS, your husband, not some Tom Dick or Harry who drifted off the street and found an easy billet. His exploitation of you is really genuinely shocking.

Spell it out to him. This isn't about housework. Housework, like sex, is nearly always a SYMPTOM of a relationship issue, not a cause. And the cause that no-one except feminists want to name, is inequality: a woman's expectation (reasonable) that she will be cherished and valued by the man she lives with and a man's -to be fair, generally unconscious - expectation (unreasonable) that she will be his bitch.

HerBEggs · 05/05/2011 17:07

He may understand it if you couch it in terms of respect.

That's a term that's bandied about a lot nowadays, so it's a familiar concept.

He will understand the argument that he is treating you with disrespect.

If he denies it, then you ahve to vocalise that you feel he is treating you with disrespect, that when he doesn't pull his weight, when he defaults to the old sexist notion that you are responsible for doing the crap work of the house which is boring, unrewarded and dull, you feel that he doesn't respect you. He can't deny your feeling, it's your's.

That's assuming you do feel disrespected, don't you? I'm assuming that here, I imagine that you've posted because your self-esteem hasn't been so ground down by this treatment, that you do still think that you're not being shown enough respect by the man who says he loves you and whom you love. Point out that this is the sort of behaviour that corrodes love. It's not petty, it's not trivial, IMO the gap in expectation between what men think they should do in the home and what women blithely expect they'll do, is one fo the major causes of marriage breakdown, partly because most women ignore their festering resentment until it's too late - the love has gone. At least with sex, money etc., everyone recognises its importance. Housework is ignored and defined as trivial because women do it and that suits men.

Writergirl · 05/05/2011 17:35

Motherwife, your thread is rather similar to an old one of mine.

I nearly walked out on DH at 7 months pregnant last year, precisely because these kinds of issues were driving me insane and I would have rather raised my family alone than with a lazy misogynist bastard.

I am delighted to report that our cataclysmic argument last year, over 'trivial' housework resulted in us getting couple counselling, and things are a million times better.

An imbalance of housework and drudgery made me feel unspeakably resentful and was extremely damaging to how I felt as a woman - in terms of making me not feel fabulously goddesslike and powerful :-) - and had a negative impact on our sex life, naturellement.

If I can share what I learnt, and what has made me happier (and I do like a clean, tidy house and the kids in ironed clothes):

Like it or not, DH responds to direct requests, not mind reading or silently hissing at and willing him to do it- not perfect, but I now always ask/tell him to do something. He does it.

He works, I work. If he won't iron / scrub toilets/ I'm not going to use up my precious spare time doing it, either.

I have forced finances to be allocated to an ironer and 1x week cleaner. 30 quid is the cost of my sanity.

One of my major realisations was also to look at what my DH did do - I realised there are a few 'he-man' things he does (as in they're noisy, make a mess, everyone can see he's doing them) which I don't fancy - e.g. lawn mowing and doing bins. I was getting so wrapped up in my own martyrdom, I wasn't being objective about his contributions, or other attributes (e.g. being generous / thoughtful / great at surprises / a great friend etc).

I also slacked off myself and made conscious decisions whether to do things, or not. When I did those things, it was for the common good of the household and I then tried to balance this with recognising what my DH might also be doing to contribute.

Don't spend time chalking up what you do versus what he does - you already know that yours will outweigh his stuff. If you want to stay together, then spend time working out how to make things right, rather than mulling on how wrong they currently are.

Writergirl · 05/05/2011 17:38

Sorry about my ramble - to sum up, yes, my DH needed a rocket up his ass to make any changes - and he got one.

JemAndTheHolograms · 05/05/2011 23:36

Well I'm a SAHM and I don't do half the things you do for my DH! If I'm ironing the kids school uniforms I'll also iron his work shirt for the next day, if the kids are off his shirts don't get ironed. If I'm making the kids packed lunches I'll also make him some sandwiches, if the kids are off school then I don't make him anything. He never complains when I don't iron his shirt or make his lunch and says thank you when I do. I do, do all his washing because I'm doing mine and the kids washing anyway, and I'm a control freak when it comes to washing.

DH is a messy bastard (I'm not much better TBH Blush), his side of the bed is a mass of piles of cleaning washing mixed with dirty socks urgh. I don't put his clean clothes away that's his job (that he doesn't do). He's also a dirty bastard when it comes to the bathroom. I've been able to overcome this by letting him take over the en-suite, and I use the family bathroom instead (prefer the shower in there anyway). The en-suite is absolutely disgusting! The toilet has well those type of splodges that don't wash off when you flush, the sink is covered in hair, the shower is just minging! I don't care because I never use it. Grin I refuse to clean it, it's his job, I always say I'm not his mother.

As has been suggested you just need to stop doing things for him. Don't wash clothes, don't iron them, don't make his food, don't clean up after him. Just concentrate in looking after you and the children, he'll soon get pissed off.

blackcurrants · 06/05/2011 12:25

How are you, OP? I've been worrying about you ever since your first post.
Sorry if that sounds weird! I hope you're ok.

motherwife · 06/05/2011 17:16

I don't do his ironing! I wash DH's clothes as there's no point being petty - if it's in the laundry basket it gets washed.

I'm reassured by writergirl's post, and identify with JemAndTheHolograms. I put clean washing away as I don't want to have to wash it again if it's been left out and the cat's sat on it.

I have talked to DH. It's difficult to work out at the start of a relationship how things will be 10 years down the line. I am not a saint: I can be a control freak, sulky, snappy at the kids, cross with DH for not being psychic etc. DH can be lovely, and can spring up with small acts of kindness that brighten up my day. But we do have this problem. Until the weekend, I had not ever thought that splitting up might ever be a possibility. It's hard, once you're in a couple, in a relationship, to see what's normal and what's out of the ordinary when it comes to roles, and division of labour. Each family is its own little island to some extent. My mother did virtually everything at home, and I know his mother did too. I grew up all equality-focussed, got myself a couple of masters degrees, a strong work ethic and a good job and ten years down the line I'm not sure how we got here. I suppose it starts with the little favours and kindnesses you do to make everyday life easier, and then it becomes part of the routine, and then something's wrong if you don't do those things.

When I asked DH if he was going to join me and the kids when we went out on Monday afternoon, he said he might, in his own car, so he could go home if it got too stressful. This was for a 30 min drive to a local beauty spot, plus a little explore with the kids and an ice cream. That was the point at which my future started to include some unwelcome options. I told DH this. He has been trying hard over the past few days. And I will also try hard to help him do his share, and not just do things myself because it's easier and less stressful. I don't mind looking after the children, and can accept that he finds the baby stage hard. I can accept that DH finds poo and puke a lot more gross than me - that's fair enough. (Although, all of these things that I accept in isolation are actually pretty unreasonable when lumped together.) I want to make things work, and we'll see how it goes.

OP posts:
motherinferior · 06/05/2011 17:42

Actually I don't think it would be petty not to do his washing. And if the cat sits on washing, that isn't your problem, surely?

HerBEggs · 06/05/2011 18:19

MW the way men get to ensure that women carry on servicing them to a ridiculously unfair degree, is to convince women that not doing so, is a bit petty.

SybilBeddows · 06/05/2011 18:34

how come it's petty of you not to do his washing but not petty of him not to do anyone's?

how about this: 'There is no point in us wasting our electricity washing your clothes if they don't get put away and have to be done again, and I don't have time to put yours away as well as mine, so it would be clearly better for you to do your own, because then you can do it at a time of your choosing and you can plan it so you will have time to put it away before the cat sits on it.'

motherinferior · 06/05/2011 19:11

Oh, sorry, but that outing thing is ridiculous.

My partner can be a complete grumpy git (by his own admission) and there have been times when I have to chivvy him into coming along to something (which annoys the hell out of me). But the idea that he might go home 'because it's too stressful' is totally unreasonable.

Oh, and he deals with Saturday clubs.

motherinferior · 06/05/2011 19:13

(And I should probably admit, in fairness, that he does all our washing. I put our washing away. Which makes me feel madly put-upon Confused.)

We have a fair number of arguments about housework and cooking, actually. And in many ways I think this is quite a good thing. Housework and cooking underpin our lives - I would rather argue, and I'd also rather our daughters saw us arguing - about it, than have this assumption that it falls seamlessly into place because women do it.

Writergirl · 06/05/2011 19:40

Er, I also agree that the outing thing is outrageous.

For all the faults of my DH, if he ever said anything like that, I'd be seriously considering my future in a relationship like that - and also quite frankly, thinking "what a miserable bastard" - I mean come ON - it sounded like a lovely afternoon out!

What on earth is in that scenario that he couldn't have 'coped' with?

Unless he's depressed? Or got male post natal depression, which, in all seriousness, happened to a husband of a friend of mine?

My confidence in my current relationship is that I left my former partner, and I left when my daughter wasn't quite 2. It was a bit disruptive, but the sense of relief when I left was tremendous. I am sure you'd have a lot of practical support if you decided to make such a step.

I really feel for you, as I was in a very dark place last year, over very similar stuff. I hope you can enjoy the weekend and spend some time thinking about your needs and what you deserve. The French have a great phrase which roughly translates as "Better off alone than in bad company." :-)

snowmama · 06/05/2011 20:41

I would like to echo writergirl ....this situation does slowly but surely take you to very dark plac

Enjoy the weekend, have a good think about your needs and and you have stop doing everything including managing your husband's contribution to the household...leave him to figure it out.

TimeWasting · 06/05/2011 21:59

Shit and vomit are gross. The reason he might find it more gross is because he hasn't gotten used to it.

Portofino · 06/05/2011 22:38

He sounds like he is opting out of normal family life, This would be unacceptable to me. I have regular chats with DH to keep him on track....

sunshineandbooks · 06/05/2011 23:27

MW I think you've been given some great advice on this thread. I know you'll feel that it may be a massive over-reaction to leave your DH over something as 'trivial' as housework because that's how many women have felt over the years, me included. The important thing to remember, as many posters have pointed out, is that it's only 'trivial' because it's traditionally fallen to women to do.

Your story has echoes of mine. Like many of my generation, I was brought up to believe that I was 100% equal to any man when it came to my intelligence and career opportunities. Sadly, this equality wasn't extended to the role of wife or girlfriend. I was never explicitly told by my parents or society that it was my responsibility to do housework, but I was bombarded with a million daily messages about how women behaved, what men wanted in women etc. You take all this in subliminally. When I took up with my now XP, he wouldn't have dreamed of attempting to stop me from going to work or saying I couldn't have a career because I was a woman, but he was slightly lazy about the house. The trouble is, because I had a fallen foul of the subliminal brainwashing and enjoyed the appreciation I got when I had cooked a nice meal etc, it somehow became more and more normal for me to do it until I eventually woke up and found myself in a situation where I was doing it all every day. Having lived on my own for a while and so been responsible for all my own domestic arrangements, I never really noticed how unfair the division of labour was regarding housework. I just carried on doing what I'd been doing (albeit in greater quantities). If I'd realised what was happening, I'd have stopped it, but I didn't even see it. I imagine this is very similar to how your situation evolved.

All this changed when I became pregnant and suffered horrific morning sickness. When I needed my XP to pull his weight, he wouldn't. Resentment built up and I almost left then, but like many women I thought: "I'm pregnant and it would be irresponsible of me to fracture my family and deny my DC a father over housework. That's just not rational!" What I should have been thinking was: "What sort of selfish arse doesn't start pulling his weight even when his pregnant girlfriend is so ill she can't even lift her head of the pillow to puke?! Run away now!"

A few months after giving birth, with a year's worth of resentment boiling away, I tackled him about it with an ultimatum (having tried reasonable requests, rotas, nagging and everything else first). His response? He tried to strangle me. Had you seen us in the six years before I got pregnant, you would not have suspected this. I didn't see it coming. Needless to say, I left the same day.

Five years later, my XPs house is a grotty dump. He still sees housework as beneath him. If you follow the advice of those advocating you to just stop doing things until he picks up the slack, you could have a very long wait, especially as he knows you will undoubtedly cave before he does.

My point is that if you talk to your DH and spell things out as you have here, you have to be prepared for the fact that if he doesn't change immediately and dramatically, the only logical explanation is that it's because he considers himself and his needs to be more important than yours, making you a second-class citizen in his eyes. That doesn't make for a happy, equal marriage. If you split up you are splitting up because he doesn't respect you, not because of the washing up.

Hope he has a light-bulb moment and this all works out for you. It can and does happen! Smile

sunshineandbooks · 06/05/2011 23:27

Yikes. Sorry for long post. Blush

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 07/05/2011 01:54

Oh my god, sunshineandbooks. How awful. Shows in the most hideous way just how serious and unpetty issues of domestic control of superiority can be. I hope everything's much better for you now?

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 07/05/2011 10:46

God sunshine that is awful. Hope you are alright now.

"My point is that if you talk to your DH and spell things out as you have here, you have to be prepared for the fact that if he doesn't change immediately and dramatically, the only logical explanation is that it's because he considers himself and his needs to be more important than yours, making you a second-class citizen in his eyes." That is so true and so sad to realise that the person you love feels like that.

motherwife it really isn't petty. It matters.

motherinferior · 07/05/2011 11:29

OK, for an example of my absolutely not perfect household:

DP fed the kids this morning and took DD2 to a dance class. And put on a load of washing. I realised the kitchen was desperately in need of a bit of a clean and ran a cloth and a hoover over it. Then I took the washing out with DD1 and hung it up. He came in with DD2 and started making some lunch. Now he has taken both Inferiorettes to swimming.

This is kind of normal. I rather think. It involves lots of arguments. But ones in which we both feel that we're being overly put-upon, from the basic premise that housework is everyone's job.