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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mother / Wife roles

78 replies

motherwife · 03/05/2011 14:16

Apologies in advance: this is an epic.

Background is this: I have been married for 10 years. I am quite a happy person, but I sometimes struggle to appreciate my marriage. I want to keep the family together though, because I believe it's best for all of us, not just the children. Also, I remember the "better or worse, sickness and in health, richer and poorer" bits from my wedding vows and consider a promise to be a promise. I can't bear the thought of not being able to see my children every other weekend, and miserable handovers at Christmas and birthdays.

My main struggle is the crossover between the role of mother and of wife. Or perhaps of mother and of lover. My DH is a good person. He works hard at his job and we both have the same views on spending and finances. We have the same educational background. I am currently on Maternity Leave but have a similarly paid job (although I get less as I work part time). I resent my DH frequently, because he appears to put so little effort into the housework. This sounds trivial, and probably is.

In the morning, I get up at 6.30, and get the kids their breakfast, and ready for school. This has always been the case, even when I've been working. DH comes down a bit later when he wakes up, switches on the computer and has breakfast in front of it. Our mornings don't really overlap except for a kiss goodbye when he goes to work or I leave for the school run. When he returns from work, he usually helps me by putting the older children to bed, which takes 20 minutes or so. Then he is on the computer, or out, until dinner. Our division of effort is that he is responsible for the kitchen. I cook dinner, and do the other chores, and he spends 10-20 minutes after dinner tidying things up. He doesn't wipe the surfaces or clean the floor, and doesn't wipe the table ready for breakfast as he doesn't notice these things. He doesn't put bottles in the containers for recycling because he forgets. He doesn't wash anything "complicated".

At weekends, I get the kids up on a Saturday as they have a club in the morning, and give them breakfast before taking them out and looking after them until lunchtime. I cook lunch. Sometimes, I ask DH to hold the baby for a bit while I am making lunch. After lunch, he likes to "let the meal go down" so I tend to clean up while he relaxes in front of the computer or the newspapers before I reading the papers, when I've finished. I sometimes ask him to help with this, and in the past he has said that he'll do it later. So I have sometimes left things, and sat surrounded by crumbs and lunch leftovers and dishes on the table and read the paper. I don't really like doing this. Often "later" means last thing at night or "tomorrow" or "I've been too busy to do it" so I do it myself. I realise that this is a personal choice, and I am allowing myself to be a matyr / doormat / whatever here. On a Saturday afternoon, he might take the older kids out for a walk while I look after the baby at home, or we might go out together. Evenings are the same as weekday evenings, with him doing a little in the kitchen last thing at night.

Sundays are pretty similar - I take responsibility for the kids all morning, and he usually gets involved in the afternoon.

DH frequently puts his work trousers into the washing bin late on Sunday and asks me to get them ready for the morning. He wears tatty clothes and when he shaves, often forgets to rinse the hairs out of the sink. He needs to be asked to take the bins out on the day the rubbish is collected. He needs to be asked not to use the washing up brush to scrub mud off his boots. He has no idea what DS1 has in his packed lunch or school bag, or what uniform he needs to wear. Our youngest child is 6m old. DH has changed 6 nappies maybe. He doesn't like doing it, and says that he finds the first year very stressful. If the children cry, he tends to snap at them, and if DC3 doesn't calm down quickly when he picks her up, he'll hand her to me, telling me how much he hates the baby phase.

DH needs his sleep, and often takes daytime naps. I resent this hugely. I get little sleep as I deal with the baby, and often the older children, during the night. DH always sleeps in longer than me in the morning and at weekends can and does spend the whole morning in bed on occasion. DH occasionally asks me to wake him after half an hour, or wake him at 8 in the morning, and if he doesn't wake until 8.30 or something asks me why I didn't wake him in time for work. I know this is churlish of me to refuse this small act of cooperation, but I want him to be able to take responsibility for waking up at the right time. He has an alarm clock.

I don't mind that I deal with the children most of the time. I do mind that I do the lions share of the housework, including all the little fiddly tasks that he "doesn't notice". Our house is not clean or tidy by most people's standards - I do what I can to stop it being actively festering or gross. He doesn't notice the mud all over the hall, or the spills on the kitchen worktops, or the grot all over the carpet, or the toys all over the living room. On the rare occasions I can persuade him to help with a job - say the garden - he often starts but doesn't finish, or does the job and leaves the tools and mess where it is.

He used to have hobbies and a circle of friends. He says that he doesn't go out cycling any more because he doesn't have the time, but I have pointed out that he could have the whole day to himself at any day of the weekend and that would be fine. And it genuinely would be - I think it would be good for him to get some "me time" that wasn't in front of the computer or in bed.

We recently had a night away as a family - we stayed in a youth hostel and DH didn't sleep very well. In the morning, he was unpleasant and bullying to the children, and continued being grumpy and sour all day. This continued the next day, and he explained that he found it stressful being cooped up with the family.

I've painted a picture of dysfunctionality here. My DH is not a monster, and can be kind and considerate to me and the children. My struggle is that I feel forced into the role of mother to him, when all I really want is to be his wife. I enjoy being mother to my children, but I fear that my DH adopting the role of my fourth "child" will repeat itself in the next generation: my sons will grow up unable to function as independent adults, giving their own wives the shitty end of the stick at every opportunity, seeing it as a woman's role to do pretty much everything. I fear that my DD will think it's normal for a woman to do everything, and she will choose a husband who treats her like this too. Please don't tell me to leave him: I don't want to do this, I want to make it work. I just need some advice on how to shift from the mother role to the wife role when it comes to DH, and get him to take some responsibility for himself.

OP posts:
AliceWorld · 04/05/2011 18:25

A tiny, and maybe helpful, point. Men are not 'helping', they are doing their fair share. I would never say to my partner can you help me with this, as then it confirms it is your responsibility and they are 'helping' you out. (Like fathers not being able to 'babysit' their own children) I recall people on here have talked before in terms of saying, 'would you rather clean the bathroom or wash up', so it is clear you do a task each, rather than 'can you help me by cleaning the bathroom'.

minipie · 04/05/2011 18:43

OP Sad

It might help to think of it (and present it to your DH) as follows:

It is fair that each of you has equal free time per week. (Free time includes sleeping and going on the computer. It does not include time spent looking after the DCs).

If he has more free time than you do (and it sounds like he does) then he is not doing his fair share, by definition.

Therefore more jobs need to be added to his list of responsibilities. What would he like to add to his list?

Similarly to Alice's advice, it may help to say "I'll cook dinner, you wash up" - so he can see that you have done your share and it's only fair that he does his.

HerBEggs · 04/05/2011 23:17

Oh Christ.

Sorry OP I only got as far as the paragraph where he leaves his tools lying around because it's his skivvy's job (that's you btw) to pick them up. I kept saying OMG divorce him.

He sounds fucking awful, sorry.

Will try and read the whole thing tomorrow and say something more constructive but I just wanted to post my immediate reaction so that you can see you're not blowing this out of proportion. OMG how can you bear him to even come near you? Someone as lazy and exploitative as this is deeply, deeply unsexy. Repulsive in fact. I felt a deep repulsion when I read the bit about the tools. He has absolutely zero respect for you if he can treat you like this. Vile vile vile. This is not trivial, it goes to the heart of your relationship. Basically, you're his bitch. Not his mother, not his wife, hiis fucking skivvy. He has no respect. That's not trivial, that's major.

motherwife · 05/05/2011 11:35

I can identify with madwomanintheattic when she says "it sort of creeps up on you because you genuinely believe you are exercising a choice and if you wanted life to be different it would be. and then. oh.".

HerBEggs I was about to launch into a defence of my DH, but thinking about it, I can't remember a time when he has cleaned the loo. I don't think it would occur to him to remove an empty loo roll tube from the bathroom. I don't think it would occur to him to clean the bathroom. He has never mopped the floor or done anything other than superficial cleaning in the kitchen. At the moment, I sleep downstairs with baby DD and he sleeps upstairs with the two older DCs, and he doesn't like using the upstairs bathroom because the DSs (5 and 3) sometimes leave wee on the seat. I don't think it has occured to him that he could clean it. I have asked him to flush the loo on the way downstairs in the morning, after the kids have used it in the night but he often forgets.

When I was at work, before DC3 was born, things weren't too different - I would always deal with the kids in the night, get them up and ready and get them to nursery and myself to work while he got himself up. I also did the same after work as I do now.

He doesn't deal with poo, wee, puke, snot or any other child bodily fluid if I'm around. Even if I'm not, he will often save it for me: leaving a puddle of wee on the carpet explaining "it'll dry", or putting a really pooey pair of pants in a bucket for me to deal with explaining "it was too gross". I think any of these things on their own, or a small number of these things might be just one of those things that you put up with, as noone is perfect. And to be fair, he does deal with the cat more than I do, including the headless rabbits, and vomited up mice, so there is some redemption.

In DH's defence, he mows the lawn. This is his job, and he does it, and I never have to ask. As he is sleeping upstairs with the boys at the moment, he has had to deal with them in the night, and has taken wet sheets off DS2's bed when necessary. He has put clean sheets on their beds, at the boys' bedtime if I've taken the old ones off during the day. I iron my clothes and the kids' stuff that needs ironing (tbh I don't iron most non-school stuff) and he does his own shirts for work. At the moment, as I don't sleep in the same room, I am leaving it up to him to wash his sheets. We're on once-a-month, I think. He takes the boys swimming on a monday (but I prepare the swimming kits and deal with it afterwards). When he has a shower, he now leaves a muslin on the floor to mop up excess water (but it wouldn't occur to him to pick up the muslin some time later in the day. This is shit, isn't it. How did we get here?)

Somehow, despite having been a feisty, strong-willed intelligent woman, I have found myself drawn into this situation little by little. I honestly don't think splitting up is the answer - it would make the family miserable and I'd certainly be doing all the housework myself rather than probably be doing it myself! I can see that the current situation is unreasonable, but think it hasn't occurred to DH that there is anything wrong.

A few weeks ago I had got drawn in by the FLYlady threads on the good housekeeping topic, but then got pissed off when I realised that the whole premise was for the woman (or laydee) to gain back control by listing her chores and organising her life around them, and to feel better about the world by shining her sink every night. The absence of FLYman struck me at that point, and I realise that my own man was playing computer games until 11pm rather than doing a swish and swipe in the bathroom...

Yesterday, I saw an article in The Times about training your husband not to treat your house like a hotel. And today, in an episode of Peppa Pig, saw Grandpa Pig fall asleep in the sunshine, letting his boat drift off while Grandma Pig looked after the kids on the beach. I think there are messages everywhere that say "It is normal (and quite okay) to be a bit lax around the house, lads. Don't want to be henpecked or anything, do we. After all, you're worth it". It's just that I haven't noticed until now.

OP posts:
minipie · 05/05/2011 11:54

I would suggest you start by asking him to do more. Put more jobs on his list. That way, if he says "I'll clear breakfast later", you can point out that no he can't do it later, because later he'll be (say) putting on a load of laundry, or clearing up the toys in the living room, or making the kids' beds.

As I said before, it will help if you point out all the jobs you are doing, and therefore that you are only asking him to do his fair share. For example "Can you do X while I do Y please". Or "Today we need to get A B C and D done. How about I do A and B and you do C and D".

I think he needs to recognise quite how much there is to be done around the place, and quite how little of it he does.

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 05/05/2011 12:45

Wow motherwife. I really think you have a serious problem here. This isn't about putting more on his list. He just won't do it (or he may for a couple of days and then slip back into it). Why should you have to be the teacher/organiser/monitor/chaser upper of tasks he should already be doing? That is just creating more work for you.

This man isn't going to change unless he wants to and even then it is going to take a long time. He feels entitled to behave like this as you say. Dealing with that kind of entitlement isn't a short-term task. Is he really worth it?

noodle69 · 05/05/2011 12:47

motherwife- I never understand how people get in these situations. Why when he doesnt do it do you do it? My husband knows if he doesnt do the things then I am not going to run round around after him. If he doesnt make his packed lunches he will starve nothing to do with me. There are times my husband has forgotten to wash his work hoody and gone in to work in messy stuff cause he didnt wash it in time but again not my responsibility.

He never moans at me as its his fault he forgot to get it out to wash it. Whats he going to do if you dont do it? Nothing cause there is nothing he can do so just dont do it. If he asked me I would help him as a favour but I am not doing it all the time I have my own stuff to do.

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 05/05/2011 12:55

noodle tbh this isn't about your husband. This is about motherwife's husband who is clearly not like that at all. I suspect she does the work because the fallout for not doing it is greater than just getting on with it.

notenoughsocks · 05/05/2011 13:02

Hi motherwife. Is it me or do you sound a bit more assertive today?

Yes, you are right those messages are everywhere. Everywhere. And once you have seen them you can't unsee them. If only it was as easy as waving a magic wand so DH could see what you see.

Just popped by to wish you continuing luck really.

noodle69 · 05/05/2011 13:05

Why is the fall out greater though? She should just not do it and say I am not here to run around after you do it yourself.If he runs out of clothes cause they are all over the floor then he will have to go out in dirty stuff or wash it. Soon if everyone starts to think he stinks of BO then he will do it. Things like that and he would soon change.

This is exactly how a parent would make a teen do something and we all know it works. He is just doing it to you cause he knows he can get away with it. i used to do it with my mum and dad all the time and I only stopped when they stopped doing everything for me. I always know they would before that, and of course its a shock to the system but then they have to try and stand on their own 2 feet.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 05/05/2011 13:25

Urgh Motherwife I am so angry on your behalf that he thinks that the (literal) "shitwork" is what you are there for.

"He doesn't deal with poo, wee, puke, snot or any other child bodily fluid" - this is what he really thinks of you, that you are there as a kind of cushion between him and the realities of having children, and even of having a bloody digestive system of his own! (toilet rolls etc)

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 05/05/2011 14:22

"Why is the fall out greater though?" Sulking, anger, disrupting family life, taking it out on the kids, becoming abusive/insulting etc etc.

We go through this every time we have one of these threads noodle. If you choose not to understand or empathise then that is your call.

RibenaBerry · 05/05/2011 14:25

Motherwife - I think the thing that springs out at me from your posts is how comfortable your husband's status quo is. He delegates any tasks he sees as icky, or a bit beneath him, to you. He's also not pulling his weight more generally.

I am not sure that just the "We need to do A and B, which one do you want to do?" approach is going to change much. His status quo is comfortable, so there will be a natural drift back to it. I think, you need to sit him down and try, really really clearly, to explain the issues and how upset it makes you. I would be inclined to make it a little bit formal - explain that you've got something you want to talk about and that you'd like to explain everything before he answers, then you'll listen to him. Then try to spell everything out logically and factually, before adding on your own feelings. Don't say "you always'" or "you never", because it invites him to disagree. Stick to the patterns "You spend around two hours each day on the computer. That is time I don't have to relax - I spend it doing jobs."

If you don't think you can do that, have you thought about writing him a letter or going to counselling? I genuinely do not think that this is about getting him to 'do a bit more'. It's about changing a whole mindset and he needs to understand the stakes. The fact that you even mention splitting up shows that this issue is serious enough for you to have wondered if that is the answer, and to me it also sends worrying signals about the state your marriage might be in by the time the children are grown up and 'keeping the family together' is no longer such an issue.

I am going to give your husband the benefit of the doubt, and assume that he's a nice guy who is worth staying with, but who has drifted into this set up - both out of laziness and because society reinforces that attitude and sense of entitlement. If he is a good guy, he deserves a proper chance to really understand the underlying issues and try and fix them. You can then be more blunt about challenging his assumptions - if he says that the pooey pants were too gross, you can productively say "but they aren't too gross for me to deal with", because you've given him the underlying message.

motherinferior · 05/05/2011 14:27

Sorry, I don't think you need to 'train him' or have 'baby steps'. He's an adult. He can do his share.

noodle69 · 05/05/2011 14:29

Well unfortunately its the only way to deal with it. If he knows you are going to do it then he wont change. People can waste their lives trying to cajol, nag and moan to get people to do it but it wont work unless you make a stand and show you wont accept it. Unfortunately its the only way and I agree with Ribenaberry.

blackcurrants · 05/05/2011 14:34

I think RibenaBerry has a good plan. This is serious stuff, he sees you and treats you as the person who deals with the shit (literal shit) that HE is too good to touch. You're beneath him, and whether or not he would admit to it, that's what his actions show you he really thinks deep down.

I'm not a "Leave him!" shouter, generally, but you say if the family split you'd DEFINITELY do all the housework, rather than almost definitely do all of it. You're right there, at least until your DC are old enough to help you in bits - BUT you'd have one less slobby child to take care of, one less sulker to pander to, and one less person to worry about relying on. Plus, think of all the emotional energy you'd free up by not RESENTING things the whole time. You do stuff for kids cos they can't do it themselves, not yet. You do the same stuff for your DH cos... why? Cos he thinks it's beneath him. But not beneath you...

If something is "too gross" for him, but not for you, what does that say about how he thinks of you?

SybilBeddows · 05/05/2011 14:36

I agree it needs to be a big, drastic intervention.
There are two huge things that need to happen:

  1. he needs to be on side and willing to change
  2. he needs to actually understand in detail how little he is doing.

are there any relatives of his who would be on your side, eg parents or siblings?

you also need to be clear about what happens if he refuses to change.

motherinferior · 05/05/2011 14:43

And for heaven's sake stop doing his washing or cooking his meals! And waking him up.

Sorry, but I really don't understand this. Maybe it's a generational thing - I'm old enough to be a dyed in the wool equality feminist....

Butterbur · 05/05/2011 14:52

My life sounds just like yours, Motherwife, but a dozen years further on. I never managed to confront DH successfully about his behaviour. I never managed to get back into the workforce for more than a short period, because I was so bogged down with domesticity and childcare, even when we were both working full time. Now my career is long behind me, and I am only employable in the most humdrum of jobs.

I would leave him, but I don't want to live in poverty. And in a way, I think sitting around doing nothing, (I have given up on the house and garden)while he supports me is my just reward for the shit I have put up with.

It's too late for me (I'm in my mid fifties now) but not for you Motherwife. You don't want to end up in the dysfunctional place I am.

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 05/05/2011 14:52

I totally agree with making a stand and stopping doing jobs that he is more than capable of doing himself. I don't think she should be "teaching" him he is an adult ffs.

I am just not sure it will work. And I am worried he might get abusive (he already sulked for 2 days because he didn't sleep well and therefore took his dissatisfaction out on the entire family). I don't think he will change because his entitlement is too ingrained. Look at the quote Elephants highlighted. He won't even care for their children. She can't just leave the children to sit in their own poo because he won't deal with it.

That then only really leaves one option...

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 05/05/2011 14:56

And blacurrants is correct if you do leave him I suspect that the amount of work you find yourself doing will drop rather than increase.

motherinferior · 05/05/2011 14:57

Yes, I do see that in that sense IABU. It just makes me cross. And incomprehending, which is not necessarily not very helpful.

noodle69 · 05/05/2011 14:58

cause it isnt too late butterbur no amount of money in the world replaces your happiness and your freedom.

annawintour · 05/05/2011 15:06

I know a stay at home mum whose DH has a high powered paying job. But he still gets up during the night and he acknowledged that she is just as busy as he is, as they have 2 young children, actually more so as he has a PA and all that other support. So on weekends he does all the housework. It is quite a refreshing attitude.

My DH did all the Housework when I was pregnant (I was pretty sick) and most of the housework while I was breastfeeding in the early days.

But it does surprise me how often my friends DH and my DH are bandied about like they are saints and we are just so lucky.

It is really tough if you are doing everything, and habits take a while to break, bit I'm sure you can start making some sort on inroad now that you have recognised the issue.

Hullygully · 05/05/2011 15:06

oh dear.

I think i would get a bucket of bodily fluids and tip them over his head so he could get used to htem quite quickly. And then I would run across the room and kick his sorry arse as hard as I could.

Have you got MUG tattooed on your forehead?