Women arrested for wearing burqas in France... what do you think?

[steamedtreaclesponge]

Here

I'm not really sure what I think about all this. On the one hand the veil is used as a tool of oppression in many countries, and I'm generally against it on the grounds that if men can't control their lust at seeing women's faces, they should stay inside, rather than making women cover up.

But then, it doesn't sit right with me that women who wear it out of choice are being arrested. Or is it comparable to the choice to become a stripper, in that it may be an OK and not-so-harmful choice to make for the person doing it, but is something that harms other women by encouraging anti-feminist or mysogynistic attitudes?

I'd welcome some more informed views on this...

computer, I have differentiated between the niqab and the burkha- I just disagree with the wearing of both.

'What about Santa beards and those heavy black funeral veils? We wear some pretty odd stuff here in the West already'

We wear them because they are part of our culture. They wear different things in Saudi Arabia, because they have a different culture.

'1 in 4 of the niqab (not burqa ffs) is white french convert. So French.'

The people wearing them are French, but it is not a part of French culture as a whole.

Toojung;
I can't work out if you're taking the piss or not.
Santa beards? Diving suits? - something worn for a few hours once a year is not really the same as wearing something everytime you go out is it?

France are right. Hopefully our government will find it's backbone and do the same.

Culture is ever changing. But the French government have made a decision and made a law specifying what is not allowable. Governments make all sorts of laws about what you are allowed to do and say in public. Those laws are repressive, but they are not undemocratic, since they are created by democratically elected governments. I think the French government think there is possibly a harm in it, which is why they have banned it. However, there may also be some electioneering in the move as well.

I think it is counterproductive. People will wear them to make a political point.

Ban the balaclava

I don't think people are allowed to wear balaclavas on demonstrations such as the student one.

I think it's great that they were arrested. It's a shame this country won't follow suit.

Bet the shoplifting numbers will go down.

It says a lot about how ridiculous this country's laws are - hoodies were banned in some shopping centres - but not burkhas.

The women weren't arrested for wearing burqas, they were briefly detained because they didn't have a permit to protest in front of Notre Dame, or wherever it was.

It's a security risk for one thing - and it doesn't do a lot for integration when no one can bloody well see you.

Ban it.

Good point, claig- just because the laws are democratic doesn't mean that they are not oppressive.

"Bet the shoplifting numbers will go down."

Oh. Is that where we are? I was enjoying this thread

Some posters seem unclear about the difference between a multicultural society, such as ours, and France's uniculture. French culture is protected by law. They have teams of experts, inclusing philosophers, constantly debating which changes to the language and other aspects of French life should be accepted into the culture. Fitting in is a legal requirement.

I found some aspects of this oppressive when I lived there - though not half as oppressive as Switzerland - however, I think its effects on the whole are good. Recently I've been hoping the UK would take something of the French approach. Not entirely, because I like the English laissez faire (funny that we use a French expression for it!), but I feel a bit of cultural regulation might help to smooth a few gritty edges in English communities.

whne muslim men are wearing burquas or niqabs, I might feel ok about it. But as a feminst and a humanist I think it's wrong. Basically it is claiming that this woman is a man's property and therefore no other man may look at her. It implies that men are so weak, so lustful that the sight of a woman's face may make them uncontrollable. It fetishes women's bodies.

As to banning it - I really don't know. I'm watching this with interest.

I have splinters in my arse.

garlicbutter, the fact that France practices (or used to) cultural exception and regulates its culture with legislation does not mean that it is not a multicultural country.

Within it, particularly in large cities such as Paris, there exists more than one culture who live in relative harmony.

The legislation can try and undo this multiculturalism, but this does not mean that it does not exist.

Good response AyeRobot.
I worked in an area which was 98% Muslim. Some women wore saris and salwar kemeez and dupatas. Some wore niqabs. Some, usually the very newly-arrived wore burqas or full veiling in pastel shaded that obscured the form and face.
Some did it by choice, because they actively wanted to wear an expression of their culture and faith.
Some wore it because they would be beaten by the males of their household if they did not.
Hard to tell who is being oppressed and who is able to make a choice.

It is perfectly reasonable for a civilised Western country to prescribe uncivilised behaviours - which include covering the face in public.

It is not a choice.

If the iman from the local mosque saw us around in the community on a school activity, he would hit any girls he saw without head coverings with a bamboo cane. When warned by the police, he reverted to taking mental note and beating them at mosque school instead.
Police warned him again, but no one would give evidence.