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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women arrested for wearing burqas in France... what do you think?

307 replies

steamedtreaclesponge · 11/04/2011 13:27

Here

I'm not really sure what I think about all this. On the one hand the veil is used as a tool of oppression in many countries, and I'm generally against it on the grounds that if men can't control their lust at seeing women's faces, they should stay inside, rather than making women cover up.

But then, it doesn't sit right with me that women who wear it out of choice are being arrested. Or is it comparable to the choice to become a stripper, in that it may be an OK and not-so-harmful choice to make for the person doing it, but is something that harms other women by encouraging anti-feminist or mysogynistic attitudes?

I'd welcome some more informed views on this...

OP posts:
DarthNiqabi · 17/04/2011 10:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoteDAzur · 17/04/2011 14:19

"Intolerant" Grin

My entire family tree is Muslim. Most of my friends is Muslim. I was born and raised in a Muslim country. No problems understanding and especially "tolerating" Islam and Muslims.

Little English convert calling me "intolerant" Hmm

In a language you will understand, you call people who point to your fundamentalism "intolerant", much like Israeli Jews call those who point to their inhuman treatment of Palestinians "anti-Semite".

GORGEOUSX · 17/04/2011 19:51

Anyone who CHOOSES to wear a niqab or a burka in the year 2011 is clearly not all there.

Muslims need to progress, stop segregating the sexes and integrate; and, along with the rest of the world, start to appreciate art and music and stop spouting their medieval crap.

Everybody should read Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion - the world would be a far better place.

laptopwieldingharpy · 17/04/2011 20:11

Very helpful gorgeous.....starting wih that stupid sweeping statement about arts and music....

Is your message basically that ALL muslims and really ALL people who have any kind of organized religious practice should be re-educated to your standard?

Very civilized.

PeachyAndTheArghoNauts · 17/04/2011 20:26

That's ridiculoys gorgeous; whilst you cannot have possible met all people who wear the burkha or niqab I actually HAVE met 'little English convert' (WTF Ciote?0 and know her quite well and that she is an intelligent woman who has a very nopn controlling and abusive (and non Muslim) DH. She is not a fundamentalist; that is a specific term for a specific group. As my old religiosn Prof used to say to students, I say to you: 'fundamentalism is a term that refers to people who would use their faith to deny and inhibit other people's rights becuase of it; use it wisely becuase as long as it remians specific it holds power'.

I am not Muslim, yet I can see that intelligent people can form their opwn opinions on matters of faith and that making random judgements across the board about all Muslims is pretty abhorent.

'Is your message basically that ALL muslims and really ALL people who have any kind of organized religious practice should be re-educated to your standard?

'

It's integuing isn;t it? I mean, people going on about fundamentalists and whatnot and yet they are the ones who want their own set of mores to be the ones to ascribe to. That's as controlling as it gets. Me, I like diversity and whilst tehre are women who need support in being liberated from all manner of faith absed (and other based) restrictions, Darth ain't one of them!

Personally lathe Dawkins, BTW: nowt to do with faith (was Athrist when I read it, Quaker now) but the man seemed so very bitter. Why hate anyone based on their membership of side a widely varying group as a mainstream faith?

NAd little convert made me LMAO be cuase I am no shortass yet she dwarfs me Grin

CoteDAzur · 17/04/2011 21:10

Fundamentalism, as defined today, is:

-- Religious fundamentalism is an ideology or philosophy that gives the religion absolute precedence over any other norm. It is usually accompanied by a literal, monolithic interpretation of sacred texts.

-- The belief in old and traditional forms of religion, or the belief that what is written in a holy book, such as the Christian Bible, is completely true

So "forcing others" has nothing to do with the definition of "fundamentalist". Look it up if you don't believe me.

As defined above, a fundamentalist Muslim would be someone wearing a hijab and believing that every word of Quran is literally true. Someone like DarthNiqabi who goes outside covered head to toe in a black binliner with a slit for eyes is beyond fundamentalist because Niqab Is Not Even In The Quran. It is an abomination born out of ignorance and over-zealousness.

CoteDAzur · 17/04/2011 21:17

And yes, some over-zealous English convert calling me "intolerant" to the religion of my country and my entire family tree is downright risible.

GORGEOUSX · 17/04/2011 21:25

Peachy we are living in the Year 2011....... who said anyone hates anyone .... certainly not I and Richard Dawkins does not state anywhere in his book that he hates anyone.

It's not about ditching religion to live up to my standards (although it would truly be a fabulous world if everyone did that Grin)

IT'S ABOUT ENGAGING ONE'S BRAIN AND THINKING ABOUT WHAT IT IS THEY ARE SPOUTING - BE IT RELIGIOUS NONSENSE (ALL RELIGIONS) OR TERRORISTS BEING REWARDED WITH VIRGINS IN HEAVEN.

PeachyAndTheArghoNauts · 18/04/2011 13:04

That's very steroetypical though; Muslim = terrorist. What about irsissh christian = terrorist? Spanish supporter os separate state?

Nah, I dont; deal in stereotypes: I deal with individuals, at elast as so far as I have the chance to get to know people.

GORGEOUSX · 18/04/2011 18:15

None of the religions you quote believe in being rewarded with virgins in heaven and this discussion is about the burkha, and muslim beliefs.

Perhaps we should pretend there are no muslim terrorists who believe they will be rewarded with virgins in heaven Hmm

CoteDAzur · 18/04/2011 18:39

You are talking about "houris" (companions to faithful in paradise) promised by God to everyone in heaven, not just martyrs. There are many verses in Quran that says there will be houris for everyone, man and woman.

The whole "72 virgins" thing comes not from Quran but from a collection of hadith (things Mohammad apparently said 1 - hearsay, basically).

Some Muslim terrorists may believe this because they've been told so by those grooming them. However, it is not correct to assume that this (mis)perception is truly a part of Islam.

garlicbutter · 18/04/2011 19:00

I do repeat this, so apologies to anyone getting bored with me! Islam is about 800 years younger than Christianity. 800 years ago, when Islam was being born, Christians were "crusading" under god's name - committing atrocities including rape, theft and torture against those they considered heathens. Christian women were kept at home, in ignorance and in chastity belts, which were more of an abomination than the niqaab.

All the monotheistic religions advocate the covering of heads. As people often remark, their basic precepts are very similar. The differences lie in interpretation and enforcement.

Islam will probably mellow out in time; I hope it does sooner rather than later and, hopefully, before too much of a bloodbath. I cannot support any theology that promotes women's subordination in any manner - so I don't support any religion. This is not to say I think all religions are unremittingly bad: I do support spirituality, which exists under every superstition, but the clarity of one's spirit really has fuck all to do with piety. Meanwhile, I just feel that facial recognition is an important feature in Western societies - and that it's good manners to observe the customs of the society in which one lives.

GORGEOUSX · 18/04/2011 19:01

Ok. Thanks Cote, but FWIW I think all religious texts are full of nonsense.

GORGEOUSX · 18/04/2011 19:03

garlicbutter I agree with you. As you said, these atrocities were practised hundreds of years ago and anything remotely like it is completely ridiculous/abominable in the Year 2011.

garlicbutter · 18/04/2011 19:10

Yeah. While I'm on my soapbox, both Christianity and Islam arose in response to Judaic oppression. But are we allowed to talk about that?? Strictly Jewish women (hasidic? I'm not sure) get over the hair-showing thing by wearing a wig! What are the chances of a similar workaround for Muslem women?

... Garlic is now entering a fantasy in which Muslem women wear wigs & lashings of makeup in order to cover their hair & faces Grin

GORGEOUSX · 18/04/2011 19:14

LOL! Grin And Spray-on tans to cover their arms, neck and legs, so they can wear summer dresses?

CoteDAzur · 19/04/2011 08:25

garlic - That is not a fantasy at all.

When headscarves were banned in Turkish universities, quite a few hijabis took to wearing wigs within university premises.

The thing with these people is that they are (1) very literal, and (2) not used to questioning/critical thinking of religious stuff. So they end up saying "Can't show my hair, so someone else's hair or synthetic 'hair' is OK", without realizing that if the point is to render oneself less attractive or less visible, the wig doesn't work at all.

PeachyAndTheArghoNauts · 19/04/2011 10:55

Why is it OK for women to wear one garment (a wig) but not anoher? Don't quite get that.

Whya ren;t we allowed to talk about the history of Christianity / Judaism? Are you imagining some weird new law I have yet to uncover?

GORGEOUSX · 19/04/2011 11:26

Peachy You are determined to have a fight aren't you. I never said you're not allowed to - you raised an 'argument' against something I said, and I pointed out to you that I was perfectly entitled to say it because this thread is about burkas and muslims and you're talking about other religions.

Talk about cup cakes and cricket for all I care but I don't really know what that's got to do with burkas and muslims and can't see the relevance on this particular thread.

NormanTebbit · 19/04/2011 13:37

Isn't it the context that is important? The way I understand it is that Islam sees the worth of woman as half that of a man.

I understand that a woman in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia has few rights when compared to a man's rights. This is part of being a muslim, is how I understand it. You can risk losing your home, your children etc if you try to divorce a man, or complain.

I don't doubt that there a few women who cover their faces and feel it is liberating them from a sexualised Western gaze and that, in accordance with their religion, this covering of the face will allow them through the gates into 'Eden'

But as a feminist I just can't shrug my shoulders and think that this is okay, it's a 'cultural thing', when there are so many women who are treated as chattel and denied so many basic things because of their sex. I just cannot believe that it is a choice freely given. I don't believe that woman can't be a muslim if she doesn't cover her face. And frankly I would not believe in the kind of god who required a woman to cover her face to improve her chances at entering paradise. It just doesn't make sense.

I see some of the posters have adopted this fashion as a free choice. But don't you see that in doing this you are confirming the idea that a woman is a possession, that there is something inherently 'bad' about the sight of an ankle, a mouth, an ear, a wrist? So bad, that women have to pray separately from men, lest they distract the men from prayer?

I just can't see how, from a feminist perspective, there is any argument to be made in defence of this - it makes me angry just thinking about it. And I cannot accept that a woman wearing a mini skirt and boob tube is just as bad.

But feminists seem strangely quiet about it.

PeachyAndTheArghoNauts · 19/04/2011 17:42

Fight no, clarification of people's views absolutely. I didn't understand a point of view so asked the Q. That's not a fight is it?

You OTOH are determined to laugh at anyone who disagrees with you and brand them either (can;t remember what term people was suing for darth was but YKWIM) of out for a fight. In order to prove I am not however I will hide the thread and not return. You may have your thread and welcome; I just hope we never see the like of this ban in the UK.

CoteDAzur · 19/04/2011 17:45

Peachy - Nobody has said headscarves are "not OK".

This thread is about the burqa - complete head & face cover with just a slit for the eyes. Why those are "not OK" is extensively discussed in the later pages of this thread.

StewieGriffinsMom · 19/04/2011 17:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CoteDAzur · 19/04/2011 19:35

" The way I understand it is that Islam sees the worth of woman as half that of a man."

That is not a correct assessment. Quran mentions something about taking the testimony of two men, or one man & two women. This is probably due to the role of society in those times, or the possibility that any one woman would possibly influenced by her husband or father to give false testimony. Quran does not say anything about woman being worth less than men (as far as I can recall - feel free to find sura to the contrary)

However, Quran does say in many places that women are valuable and treated with kindness. One bit I remember is God forbidding them to kill female babies at birth (sadly, a common practice in those days, and even in ours, in some parts of the world Sad)

CoteDAzur · 19/04/2011 19:36

Sorry but Peachy is not a "wind-up merchant".

She is understandably a bit annoyed that her friend has bit the dust on this thread, that's all.