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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Women arrested for wearing burqas in France... what do you think?

307 replies

steamedtreaclesponge · 11/04/2011 13:27

Here

I'm not really sure what I think about all this. On the one hand the veil is used as a tool of oppression in many countries, and I'm generally against it on the grounds that if men can't control their lust at seeing women's faces, they should stay inside, rather than making women cover up.

But then, it doesn't sit right with me that women who wear it out of choice are being arrested. Or is it comparable to the choice to become a stripper, in that it may be an OK and not-so-harmful choice to make for the person doing it, but is something that harms other women by encouraging anti-feminist or mysogynistic attitudes?

I'd welcome some more informed views on this...

OP posts:
hogsback · 11/04/2011 20:58

@NormanTebbit:

"Years ago, in the 1970's it was rare to see a woman with even her head covered in Cairo. Now it is the norm for head and sometimes the full burka thing. I don't know why this has changed in such a short time if this was a choice."

That would be the rise of Wahhabi-inspired fundamentalist Islam. They're really keen on giving women a choice apparently.

GORGEOUSX · 11/04/2011 20:59

LOL! Grin

Goblinchild · 11/04/2011 20:59

That's a shame tethers, you contribute so effectively to a debate.
I'm interested in the tightrope balance between cultural and religious rights and human rights, and how much more complex it is than we'd like it to be.
So this is a fascinating topic to have diverse opinions on.

GORGEOUSX · 11/04/2011 21:01

Yes tethers It is a shame - do continue with your 'debate' and pretend that Goblinchild hasn't shot herself in the foot by announcing that women in burkas conceal things under them. Grin

NormanTebbit · 11/04/2011 21:03

I'm not sure a ban is going to achieve much at all except some political capital for Sarkozy.

But I find it hard to accept that covering your face is a feminist choice within the context of Islam. To me it seem the women are pretending that it is their choice but it limits their lives to such an extent that I can't see how anyone would choose it. Because with the face covering comes other restrictions to life - work, socialising etc...

tethersegg · 11/04/2011 21:04

Thanks Goblin (unless that was sarcastic Wink)

I think it's interesting too.

I just like the fact that there are things I disagree with allowed in the society in which I live.

Goblinchild · 11/04/2011 21:05

I've known boys in skintight jeans and muscle shirts who could shoplift items of unusual size and complexity, seemingly by inhalation.
Problem with a niqab G is that it only covers your head and shoulders. So for shoplifting purposes you'd be better off with a nice top hat.
L

tethersegg · 11/04/2011 21:06

For example, I'd like to ban GORGEOUSX from this thread, but of course to do so would be absurd.

It is her right to be here and spout nonsense, and it would be wrong to ban her just because most of us wanted to.

Goblinchild · 11/04/2011 21:06

sarcastic? Shock

Goblinchild · 11/04/2011 21:07

Can I be here and spout nonsense?
Pleeese.

garlicbutter · 11/04/2011 21:08

I've discovered I was using the wrong word - France is "assimilationnist".

tethersegg · 11/04/2011 21:08

I agree that wearing a niqab is not a feminist choice.

I refuse to believe that being told by the state not to wear it is one either.

You're right, Norman- it's the Sarkozy show.

NormanTebbit · 11/04/2011 21:12

But it may cut down on shoplifting Grin

tethersegg · 11/04/2011 21:13

Well, that is its policy, garlic- but some would argue that the assimilationist model is redundant in the face of such clearly multicultural parts of cities.

CoteDAzur · 11/04/2011 21:14

France's burqa ban is not about banning some item of clothing, but shunning the mentality that women should be segregated and hidden from view. They have been debating this issue extensively over the past year, and the result is every one of those debates is a resounding support for the ban.

France is a secular country and "equality" is one if its three fundamental values. It is not surprising that they consider the religious segregation of women as abhorrent.

Basically, French don't want to live with burqa wearers and their men who share this mentality, who are a very small minority within the French Muslim community. The overwhelming feeling here is that if is is how they want to live, they should go live in a place that accepts this way of life.

GORGEOUSX · 11/04/2011 21:14

Ah, but this thread is about burkas and you can conceal an awful lot of stuff under a burka.

tethersegg · 11/04/2011 21:14

Goblin, others may want you banned, but I'll fight for your right to stay Grin

I've always defended you Wink

StewieGriffinsMom · 11/04/2011 21:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GORGEOUSX · 11/04/2011 21:15

As Goblinchild has already stated Grin

tethersegg · 11/04/2011 21:18

I accept those views and the reasoning behind the legislation, CoteDAzur. What I do not accept is that the solution is to legislate how women dress. By doing this, the French government has become what it was purporting to be against.

Unrulysun · 11/04/2011 21:19

I was on the fence for a while there. But then I remembered that some people are always wrong about everything and it all became clear. I disagree with your niqab but will fight to the death etc etc...

Thanks to the people who helped me decide. You know who you are.

garlicbutter · 11/04/2011 21:21

Yes, tethers, which is why it's such a fierce debate in France just now - the multiculture thing, not specifically the niqab. Still, the country's assimilationnist & culturally protectionist tradition makes it logical that France would question the acceptability of the veils and put the question to the people. I have my own view on the niqab, as stated, but was trying to highlight this important difference between the way France works and the way we do.

Switzerland was scary. Can you imagine Brits being content to get fined for putting your washing out at the wrong time, flushing the loo at night, emptying your bins to early, etc, etc, etc? My neighbours sent the police round because I mowed my lawn on the wrong day. I'll have to go & see what Switzerland thinks about niqabs now ... Grin

AuldAlliance · 11/04/2011 21:25
garlicbutter · 11/04/2011 21:26

Blimey! The Swiss have banned a whole list of Muslim symbols including minarets! Why on earth am I surprised?

claig · 11/04/2011 21:29

I remember a few years back when Fance had riots, the Laour lot here rushed onto our TV screens and told us that France's model of integration was wrong, and that our multicultural system was better. But they soon after changed their tune, with Trevor Phillips saying that multiculturalism was not a success

Backlash against multiculturalism

Labour introduced citizenship classes and a test of Britishness for immigrants. Cameron has just continued the trend with his speech saying that state multiculturalism has failed. Merkel said that German multiculturalism had failed

State multiculturalism has failed

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

It seems to me that there is now a trend to move towards the French model of assimilation rather than multiculturalism.