Women arrested for wearing burqas in France... what do you think?

[steamedtreaclesponge]

Here

I'm not really sure what I think about all this. On the one hand the veil is used as a tool of oppression in many countries, and I'm generally against it on the grounds that if men can't control their lust at seeing women's faces, they should stay inside, rather than making women cover up.

But then, it doesn't sit right with me that women who wear it out of choice are being arrested. Or is it comparable to the choice to become a stripper, in that it may be an OK and not-so-harmful choice to make for the person doing it, but is something that harms other women by encouraging anti-feminist or mysogynistic attitudes?

I'd welcome some more informed views on this...

for the reasons EversoLagom gave above i disagree with the ban in public, entirely.

however, i do agree with banning veil wearing in some specific situations - teaching, attending school, passport interviews, border control, seeing a GP or working as a GP, most nursing jobs, the list is quite long.. and i would not expect to see a woman in bondage gear or a bikini top in the same situations.

Men's ideas of control vs men's ideas of control, with women in the middle being pulled in both directions. What's new?

I wonder how quicly they are going to enforce this law against people other than Muslim women. What about people going to fancy dress parties with masks on? Or cyclists wearing those face-protection thingies?
I despise all woman-hating superstitions too, but I do think this ban is just racist point-scoring against a very small, very voiceless group of women, and I can see it encouraging more niqab-wearing and unfortunately more male bullying of women, as well.

Claig is right. This has very little to do with women's rights as such, or indeed racism (plenty of burqa wearers are white converts). It's about the majority French culture. The legislation is a clear (if controversial) statement that the French state's view is that if you live in France, you should fit in with French culture.

If I lived in Saudi Arabia I'd expect to dress to fit in there. If a majority of people in France want this made law, it's their democratic right to vote for it.

No they won't be fined, nor will fancy dress goers, because they are not of a different culture to the French culture.

Think they do ban crosses....The multicultural thing isn't accepted in France like it is here. Official bodies of the State take no account of racial differences, because they believe all citizens to be equal as part of the post revolution settlement. That often translates as 'the same', so it makes it difficult to counter race discrimination which is a big problem. The State ban is for sure more about Islamophobia than women's liberation. 2 problems - State repression outdoors, sexism indoors.

claig @ 16:31 I Xposted with you. Sorry!

Lindsey Hilsum, the International Editor of Channel 4 News, nearly always wears a head covering when she reports from Pakistan. I think it is about conforming to the customs of the local culture.

'Maybe I shall go to Paris in mahoosive sunglasses that cover most of my face'

Then you'll be like Brigitte Bardot.

computermouse "Feeling silly. Maybe I shall go to Paris in mahoosive sunglasses that cover most of my face".

If you are feeling silly you should travel to Saudi Arabia or Iran without a head scarf.

I agree with the French electorate.

Imo, covering one's face in public is antisocial and a security risk. I don't care what people wear in private but in a healthy, free society it's important to be able to see who you're interacting with.

As expat says, France is a democracy and this rule was democratically voted by its citizens.

French law says French citizens must adopt the French way of life, which is determined by groups of academics on a regular basis. It looks weird to us, but actually it seems to work well. Claig, France isn't multicultural at all; it's unicultural.

If I go to a strongly Muslim country I accept I should cover up to fit in. I expect the same adaptability from those coming from other cultural backgrounds to European societies (I think we're too weedy over this, but that's a whole other thread!)

Imagine had the UK gvt made a law against Indian or Chinese restaurants because that food is not British culture!
Would we really like to live in a land without Chicken Tika Masala, or a Prawn Balti on a Friday night?

"If I lived in Saudi Arabia I'd expect to dress to fit in there."

Actually, I don't want to cover my head if I visit a muslim country- I disagree with the basic premise of it. And I think Saudi Arabia has some very oppressive laws; the last thing I would want is to emulate them!

I think our laws are more tolerant and more advanced than some other countries. France has taken a step backwards IMO.

I wouldn't wish to go to Saudi Arabia. I really wouldn't. Or many other countries where civil rights against a section of the society are non-existant.

I am going to go against the tide here and say that I agree with the ban. I can't help but feel that France is being quite enlightened on this.

I accept the arguments about telling women what to wear and what not to wear. But I still support the law.

I was horrified when reading the descriptions of the burkhas in the Bookseller of Kabul. Heavy, hot, impractical...stained with grease after being hung in the kitchen when not in use, the 'window' to the garment reeking of cooking fat. It sounded hideous to me.

Plus I am uncomfortable with the whole premise for women wearing them.
Where are the men in burkhas? And why should women have to cover up so as not to tempt other men? Perhaps men should have to wear blinkers instead and women wear whatever they want.

Just my feelings on the matter. Don't want a fight but can't help but feel glad that the French have tackled this.

I agree with you Jess. Why should women cover if men find them tempting. But the answer is not to make men wear blinkers either, but to, er, let them get on with it. So men find women attractive? Deal with it!

What about Santa beards and those heavy black funeral veils? We wear some pretty odd stuff here in the West already. What about people in full diving suits running the marathon? Not to mention wedding veils and halloween outfits...and being swaddled up in scarves against bitter wind and snow.

Surely the new French law should be the other way round, if any person feels s/he is being forced to wear anything they don't want to, then they should be able to have access to the law of the land to tell the other person to stop pressurising them? That would be a far more general and equal move.

Is it any different from oppressive laws on womens attire in predominately Islam countries?

I find the enforced exposure of women as abhorrent as the enforced covering up (in principle). If you had offered me the possibility of wearing a niqab when I was 15 I would have taken it. I would have far preferred to be invisible than to be a constant subject of sexual and social scrutiny as a physical object. (btw if this is relevant I am white from a Christian background) You might say that women and girls shouldn't feel subject to that, but they are and they do.

But: in practice I feel uncomfortable in local shops where the only other people in there are women in niqabs, and men. I wonder if I look to them as if I am shopping in a bikini, and if this makes me sluttish to them and not worthy of respect, and I resent wondering if I look dirty or slutty when I am wearing trousers and a jacket, and I feel guilty wondering if this is racist.

'Imagine had the UK gvt made a law against Indian or Chinese restaurants because that food is not British culture!'

But France has Indian, Chinese and all other types of restaurant. This is different to food, they think it is about citizenship.

I agree with all of the above- I am vehemently opposed to the wearing of the burkha.

But I do not want it banned. As Saltatrix points out- why is the state dictating what women wear less oppressive than husbands and fathers?