Porn - I use it and feel bad - help convince me porn is wrong

[GuiltyPornUser]

Firstly, sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, although I thought it may be the most appropriate. I'm a married man, and I use porn fairly regularly. It's not something I feel has a massive negative effect on my life, but I feel bad about it. I'm not someone who specially goes out of my way to buy porn, (I've never paid for it), but with the internet, it's only ever a few clicks away.

I want to be convinced that it's wrong. I recently read Andrea Dworkin's book on pornography, but it hasn't stopped me. I appreciate that a lot of stuff on the web is very brutal and degrading to women, but a lot of the stuff is less obviously so.

My DW wouldn't be happy with me using porn, and I want to stop. I want to be convinced that it's wrong, and how I go about stopping using porn, when it's so easy to find on the internet.

There may be some here who think porn is acceptable and I'm just suffering from some almost religious guilt.

I'd really welcome some advice here, because my DW could find out one day and I want to stop.

Then read about it. Don't attack the people who have done so and have formulated their opinions.

I have read this thread. Every day. Every single post. I find it very productive. I do not need to rethink all of my views I have established over lots of research, reading, discussion and thinking, all of the time. The fact that there is a space where these things can be said, and for people to see that you do not have to accept porn as 'normal' is extremely productive.

The reasons the OP was replied to in the way he was have been covered several times. If I went on to a forum where people discussed their experiences of racism and how to deal with it, and said I still like to tell racist jokes to my friends, and could they help me see the error of my ways, I would not expect them to applaud me for trying to change. That would be an abuse of my privilege as a white person.

There's a range though between being applauded and being attacked. The OP didn't come on to say "hey porn is great, you women are wrong". If he had, he would have deserved a pasting, but he didn't. After two or so pages, he was accused of being a potential rapist.

If you are anti-porn prosperina why are you putting forward pro-porn arguments?

If you are anti-porn why are you trying to find a "balance" to the argument?

If you are anti-porn why are you not accepting the evidence offered - the numerous accounts from ex-porn stars; the thousands of hits on the web showing gonzo porn (just found by typing in the word porn); Gail Dines/Robert Jenson excellent research looking at the entire industry and the effects rather than just porn users?

If you are anti-porn why are you not trying to find more evidence to back up your anti-porn claims?

If you are anti-porn why are you fixated in proving that there is "good" porn - despite the fact that all porn objectifies women and reduces them to the sum of their body parts?

If you are anti-porn why are you fixated in trying to prove that porn doesn't do any damage to the women involved (or to women outside the industry) - whilst in contrast saying that no woman should suffer (despite all evidence to the contrary)?

You can say you are anti-porn until you are blue in the face but your speeches on this thread belie that.

Changing the subject to put the focus back on the OP - who was being arrogant and priveleged at the very least, is distractionary. "Tell me why I shouldn't look porn"; "I haven't told my wife"; "I can't be arsed to do the work my self - you do it for me because I can't actually see what is happening in front of my face because I choose not to". And I find it quite telling that you have more empathy with him than the women being abused. In fact you are doing exactly the same as him - being presented with the evidence but not actually seeing it. Wanting us to do your reading and research for you. Wanting us to "convince" you.

I'm putting across pro-porn arguments (even though I'm anti-porn in general) because we don't live in a black and white world - all porn = evil, all porn = great.

As for the OP, there was so much projection going on - Where did he say, other than in your mind, that he "couldn't be arsed?" Jesus, he'd read Dworkin.

Amen diving and Alice. As we keep saying to you, go and read some stuff before deciding that it's good or bad research. It's really simple but you won't do it though you keep saying you want evidence. I seriously wanted to know why defenders of porn would think it wad ok so I went and read some stuff too, as much as I could though it is difficult as researching this kind of stuff on the net or even looking for references brings up some pretty nasty stuff. I have made an informed judgement on this by getting off my arse and finding stuff out. Why don't you?

Dittany, I'm going to do some research on this, it's clear that this discussion isn't going anywhere

Ok prosperina - if you really think there was nothing problematic, privileged, or entitled about the way OP started this thread, then NO WONDER you think we're all unreasonable harridans. And if you think it was our responsibility to explain 'nicely' to him the reasons that women are actually as human as he is, then, again, no wonder you probably think we'ere all setting 'the cause' back. This is Feminism 101.

I also hugely appreciate the women on here who tirelessly respond to the unconvinced, the pro-porn, and those who believe that we who wish to change the status quo must dismantle EVERY pro-porn argument EVERY time we discuss this.

Great comparison vis a vis race discussions Alice. As I'm sure you know - that sort of discussion happens very frequently in that world too. Have you read the 'Stuff White People Do' blog?

No amount of negative research will stop (most) men from using pornography - it's a sex aid pure and simple and men are very good at separating sex from 'feelings/empathy. Did Bill Clinton think about his wife or daughter when he was getting sucked off by an intern? - he was the most powerful man in the world and he still risked everything for sex, ( and insisted he hadn't done anything wrong when found out ) men always use the - 'it didn't mean anything' - line, because to them, it doesn't mean anything - that's why it's almost impossible for men to see sex/porn in the same way women do.

Although some women are like men in that respect.

That's actually a good point carmina - we could spernd the rest of our lives trying to compile the definitive proof of the harm porm does and it wouldnt make a blind bit of difference to men who will never see women as truly human anyway.

So let's not waste any more valuable feminist time on that - the work has been done. We shouldn't let anything distract us from campaigning for full criminilisation

Woah hold on a second there. I'm ignoring the 'I'm an anti-porn person who makes pro-porn arguments' and the touching empathy for the OP's wank habits.

However, Prosperina, I would like you to clarify this statement of yours;

"After two or so pages, he was accused of being a potential rapist."

Could you quote that post please - the one where the OP was accused of being a potential rapist?

I am in awe of those of you who have kept this going. I'm going to have a break now and do some work. Thank you sisters and see you soon

One of the problems I have with threads about unacceptable male behaviour, whether it's porn use, visiting sex clubs, cyber sex, prostitute use or infidelity, is the statements made about men as a whole. It's deeply insulting to men who do associate love and feelings with sex, despise women being objectified for their sexuality and behave in their public and private lives as decent human beings. It always occurs to me that so many posters have a very low opinion of men, yet they seek to defend the worst male behaviour by suggesting that "all men" are like this.

They are not.

Sorry - I assumed you knew what I meant - this is about porn users as a group, not the entire male population - clearly not all men use porn and most men do not cheat on their wives - but of the men who do cheat and use porn, - most are able to separate sex from love/empathy/call it what you will .
And I think men are fantastic - that's why I'm married to one.

Beachcomber, yes, it was a post on Monday 11 April at 11:30! The implication was clear

Anyway, amusing to think I'm seen as pro-porn, oh well, I've obviously not made myself clear to some of the folks here, no point arguing with those who think so.

Oh well, at least George Bush was right, you're either with us or against us. Post anything that isn't violently anti-porn, and you're pro-porn.

Think I'll name change back again now. Interesting debate though from some

I know this has been mentioned upthread, but it's really preying on my mind.

Why is it that people find it so easy to ignore/belittle/dismiss personal testimony..you know, oh it's just an anecdote, it doesn't mean anything?

Because to me, opening up about abuse (any kind of abuse tbh..and imo this is abuse) and not being believed is just horrible.

It reads to me that these women are dismissed non people and what happened to them doesn't matter. How on earth can anyone not find that awful? I just can't get my head round the idea that someone would read that stuff and not be massively disturbed by it.

Sorry to interrupt but Newsnight will be doing a report on teenagers and porn this evening. It might feature some personal anecdotes and might not be rigorous enough for some here, but for the open minded among us, it might be worth a look.
p.s. completely agree flip. Many academic disciplines feature this kind of evidence and it is taken seriously when considered alongside other sorts of evidence.

I'm afraid I'm a bit pedantic and a bit of a stickler for truth. Which is why I'm really dismayed at Prosperina making serious and unfounded accusations on this thread.

Prosperina, you said, and I quote;

"After two or so pages, he was accused of being a potential rapist."

You were referring to the OP.

When I asked you to quote the post in which the OP was accused of being a potential rapist, you cited the following post by dittany (correct me if I'm wrong).

"dittany Mon 11-Apr-11 11:30:55

He's still posting on that other thread.

He doesn't seem to be able to hear it when a woman draws a boundary and says no."

Dittany was referring to the fact that the OP posted on a memorial thread about a radical feminist whose wrote about pornography. She asked him not to stomp all over said memorial thread for reasons which can be found on said thread, and yet he continued to do so.

You are making things up. Nobody, anywhere, on this thread has accused the OP 'of being a potential rapist'.

You have made a very serious allegation and you have failed to back it up.

Do you understand what the word boundary means?

Why are you making things up and when are you going to apologise for doing so?