Is the increase in anti-feminist trolls normal in the general cycle of this topic?

[FlamingoBingo]

I've not been here that long, but I've just suddenly noticed a couple of people coming here, it seems, simply to disagree with things...not to try to learn more (eg. 'I don't understand why...can you explain it), but to be rude, unpleasant and aggressive.

I know this is to be expected, but I'd been surprised not to see it here up until now, and now a sudden influx. Is this normal? Will it settle down again at some point and make the topic a nice, happy, safe place to be again?

You do realise that in every other sphere, feminists have to justify their viewpoint at every turn? Is it too much to ask that this space is one where the tables are turned?

If you looked at the threads like the one about who appreciates this forum, you will see plenty of people who lurk and have changed their viewpoints and had their questions answered by doing what I said in my previous post. I'm one of them too.

Maybe if you go back and revive that other thread and answer the questions that were put to you, we can get the debate going again and you'll get your questions answered too?

Dittany - please stop being so agressive. I am on the verge of losing my rag and dont want to because despite you being so agressive in your posting style you obviously have a lot of interteting things to say. However I you will never see anything other then the fact I am curretly pro choice, and therefore need to be shot down. You are saying a feminist cannot be pro choice? Or is it in your view a feminist cannot be pro choice?

Aye - I did see the therad about who appracites the forum. Unfortunately, at the same time I also saw two massive bunfights!

Thanks for the suggestion - I would love to resurrect the thread but think nothing good can come of that tonight. I shall levae poor OP's Troll thread alone now!

Don't you tell me what I am and am not. Not for one second will I tollerate that shit. Get over yourself - who the HELL do you think you are? I note you didnt answer my quesion, or respnd to my other point that the thread I raised my inital questions about being introuced to feminism on were in fact on an 'intro to feminism' thread, yet you still chose to punce, didnt you?

Unfortunatly I have come to reason that actually you ate too blinkered to enter into reasoned debate.

Now I AM leaving, because I am on the edge of losing it.

Hi Todderwrangler
Tbh, and without wishing to sound aggressive, I can see where AyeRobot and Dittany are coming from. I think most people start off with the idea of "choice feminism". It is the accepted perspective/point of view amongst non-feminists and it's a position that suits patriarchy and the industry. And therefore most people IME who come to feminism start off by asking the same questions (e.g. about prostitution/why don't why drop the term "feminism" etc).

I had all these thoughts myself when I "found" feminism. I was also pretty naive about prostitution and thought that surely it was ok because women were choosing to do it. But some friends of mine on Facebook knew more about it and kept posting articles that I couldn't help but see and that's how my eyes were opened to the abuses of the industry. I didn't even go proactively looking for information on it. I wasn't on Mumsnet then and I didn't talk to anyone about it. My information came from friends posting on Facebook which prompted me to read up on the subject further.

And the more I read, the more disturbed I was and can honestly say that 4 years ago I was completely naive about the sex industry.

I do agree that it is useful if more experienced feminists can share their knowledge and resources with newer feminists. But I think one of the problems is that so many people come to feminism with these questions that it could be a full time job to answer every time someone asks for more information.

I have to say - and I don't mean this aggressively at all - that I got the impression that you didn't want your views challenged as you had already made up your mind from that previous thread. I apologise though if that's not the case.

Dittany, don't start trying to draw others into your viscious, petty and repatitve little web. Jess has done something you havn't, which is take a few momenst to expain the stance rather the ponce on one quote that has been explaine NUMEROUS time, and refuse to answe resnoble points.

Thank you Jess - seems sensible to me and gives a good picture of bothe 'sides' (newbie V's hardcore!).

Choice feminism has become the default and one that most people take without really doing much thinking about it, toddlerwrangler. To have come to a different conclusion is swimming against the tide and does reuqire lots of reading and musing etc. I was a default choice feminist. I was 18 in 1991 and thought the world was my oyster and I could choose to do whatever I liked and chose and thought that other women could and should do the same. I have a lot in common with Jess, I think, and I can see she has done lots of the leg work too.

toddlerwrangler, have you read the threads recently on porn? Lots of links on there. Here's one and One on choice in general

Thanks Aye, really appreciated. Shall start with those, and try not to come stright back and say 'yes, but, what iiifffffff....'!!! :)

Just to answer the point about concern trolls, I've come across a few of them. There was a very annoying one on the Hooters threads a while back. Yes, we had one guy who joined up to say that he couldn't wait for "bitches with big tits to serve him beer". But that was a less than subtle post.

The concern troll comes on and pretends to be interested. So you engage and spend precious time answering questions and responding to points they raise. Then they proceed to tell you where you are going wrong and they mention that they don't necessarily with what you are doing but they do it in a very polite way.

Then they suggest that you are going about things the wrong way but don't have any alternative suggestions.

And you start wondering what this person's point is and why they are posting. This is after you've spent about 5 hours responding to them and are slowly going mad.

I speak from personal experience....

....they mention that they don't necessarily agree with what you are doing but they do it in a very polite way....

Ok, ok, I know what I said, butttttt ... can I please ask one little question, as I googled this and got 3,500,000 answers .

Is it 'official' that choice feminism isn't actually feminist? I know that probably sounds a relly stupid question but I can't think of a better way to word it. Are there people who have spent a lot of time being active feminists who remain pro choice, or is it the general consencus that after proper research it is acceed choice feminism is bad?

I am looking at those links, this has come up as part of my research!

promise I will leave you alone after this. For a bit!

Still lots of choices feminists. Plenty of other feminists believe (with well thought out reasoning ) they are talking baloney.

Here's another link on choice feminism www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1163546-As-promised-my-review-of-A-Noughtie-Girls-Guide-to-Feminism Make sure you read the link I put in from the Guardian, it's brilliant.

You are lucky that I am being very lazy and lying on my sofa with a glass of wine, tw, and providing these links.

Your starting to sound a litle boaring, which is something I diddn't expect from you to be honest. Stop trying to rally your troops and ruin a civil conversation.

Thanks Aye, I do apprecaite that paticular one! The 3 and a half million hit were VERY conflicting so didnt quite know where to start!

I shall leve you alone - enjo your wine!

dittany - ToddlerWrangler is not a concern troll!

I recognise her from BF/FF section. Nice to see you here Toddler.

Toddler and other lurkers etc - there are some very obvious trolls who come from other boards on wind up missions etc - plus see Jess's description of a concern troll above.

I think the easy accessability of this section to people not identifying as "feminist" is a strength and a weakness.

Different threads play out in different ways.

As a relatively new feminist and someone who likes "teaching" and loves linking I enjoy helping others find there way into feminism.

Others don't enjoy this - and I absolutely do not make a criticism of them in this - because there are multiple functions to this board and we have evidence that people change their minds through viewing this topic!

You may be interested to know that I have previously clashed a little with Dittany - but what I always try to bear in mind is - Keep An Open Mind.

IMO a little bit of feminist research unlocks the door to a whole heap of understanding about how our society works - media/relationships/politics etc.

If key feminist messages seem "out there" to you - then it is because they are against prevailing culture/wisdom.

I feel that my view of the world is so different from how it was pre-feminist. It's like I have these special glasses that allow me to question.

^^

Trolls never answer key questions, they'll only answer easy or peripheral ones. That's the biggest sign, I think. Oh, and that they don't actually have anything to add bar mocking, stereotype and, eventually, insults.

"Is it 'official' that choice feminism isn't actually feminist?"

I have understood that there is no one definition of feminism....

Try searching under "choiceless choice" in this topic for some good thread on this.

I hugely recommend The Equality Illusion. There would have been no way I could have accessed this board without reading that book (and a few others).

Dittany you said Then again she supports the sex industry and men's right to buy and sell women".

I would think that someone looking at this board and asking questions who is not a new poster to MN is someone who may well change their mind/and or is looking to explore the possibility of changing their mind.

You have stated before that you have not always been anti-porn? Therefore at that point in time you supported the sex industry?