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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism chat thread II

1000 replies

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 22/02/2011 00:30

Since it looks like the first chat thread is about to fill up, here's the next one all ready and waiting.

Think of it as the gated commune with babysitting on demand and gorgeous poolboys serving the drinks :o

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 28/02/2011 00:28

Thanks Engelbert, yes it's this sort of thing that the chat thread is made for. I built this place with my own perfectly well functioning arms y'know

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EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 28/02/2011 00:30

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sakura · 28/02/2011 08:38

OMFG, you're not going to believe what just happened. Ever wished you'd said XYZ after the conversation? Well today, I did say it all.

I picked DD up from kindergarten and took her and DS to the park and who did I bump into but a Swiss guy I vaguely used to know from when I used to go to Japanese classes years ago.
There are so few foreigners here that when you see one you tend to have a chat, especially if they're about the same age as you.

Turns out this guy is a priest and is here on a mission, and has set up his own church. Fine, fine. Apparently his uncle is also here, and has set up another church. Fine, great. he's just come back from a year in Africa.

From the questions he was asking I could see he was gauging my reaction and trying to find out if I was a Christian.

Then, before I knew it he was trying to convert me to God, telling me there is a plan for me, God loves me etc. But it was scary. I mean his behaviour was creepy and rapisty, but I didn't realise it at first because of course as a woman I've been programmed to be self-efacing and deferential. I just excused him as being very passionate about his faith.

But it suddenly occured to me how ridiculous he was being. It was as ridiculous as me trying to convince him to be a radical feminist.
And I was shocked at the realisation that women are programmed to "look after" men in conversations: make sure we don't offend them, make sure we don't hurt their egos by making them look stupid . It was blatantly obvious I was uncomfortable about the conversation and he didn't give a shit because he kept on pressing me. To me, purposely ignoring someone's discomfort is a rapist mentality.

And you'll never guess what I had in my bag. Beyond God the Father, by Mary Daly (as recommended by Ditt) , which I've been reading non-stop since yesterday.

Anyway, strength came out of me from nowhere. He upped the antse, started using amateur psychology , and I just couldn't believe how easy it was to turn it back on him. He kept trying to frame the conversation around God existing, and I smoothly kept reframing it into a context where God could not possibly exist.

It made me realise how many women become Christians because they're brow-beaten into it, then once you're in, you can't get out.

Examples included:

Priest: "Was your childhood happy? Often when we turn away from God...blablah

Me: [not answering by reframing] "What was your childhood like? Did your parents believe in God?

Priest: [Hesitant] "Yes, yes, They helped me a lot"

Me: "Yes, children are easily influenced by their parents' beliefs."

or

Priest: "It's known that bitterness can cause cancer"

Me: "No it's chemical pollutants and carcinogens that cause cancer. The government and corporations want to blame the victims because then they don't have to take responsibility by legislating against capitalist excesses" [I shit you not, it all came out perfect]

etc.

I could see in his eyes that he wanted to have me burned as a witch.

And I told him

"You know, there is a political power structure behind this conversation. YOu have the power of the church behind you supporting your beliefs, and I, as a woman, do not have any power supporting the truths I know about life"

The conversation ended like this:

Priest: "Do you want to have a happy future"

Me: "It makes no difference to me?"

Priest: "It makes no difference to you???

Me: "Do you know that two women a week are killed in the UK by their husband. There was a man down the street from me here who killed his wife and child six months ago." Knowing this, how relevant is it to me, as a woman, to know that my future will be happy. It's irrelevant.

Priest: "Yes, [sad face] . And the divorce rate in [our city] is the highest in Japan

Me: [in my mind: WTF. DIvorce and wife murder are on the same level. OH yes because they're both evil Hmm

Me: Well It's better to be divorced than dead.

And he looked at me. And I looked at him. And we both knew I'd won. Next thing I knew he'd practically run off without saying goodbye.

Thank you Mary Daly. I feel bloody brilliant. One for the feminist cause. Maybe he'll think twice in future before trying to brow beat another woman into his faith.

SardineQueen · 28/02/2011 09:05

Blimey Sakura I bet you got right up his nose well done you.

Just reminds me that an awful lot of men get really angry/upset when women answer back - as they would with a child, but without any room for indulgence. Just struck me that one.

Loads of men at work have got visibly upset when I didn't say what they wanted to hear. My dad does it as well and my grand-dad was terrible. He of the congratulatory message when I was born "better luck next time"... Once was talking about his bank accounts and my mum said something and he shouted "she's giving me advice about money!!!!" to show how preposterous it was.

Sorry a ramble there.

But it's a pretty big realisation that actually I have met loads of men who were really upset when I spoke back/stood up to them/disagreed. It's pretty pathetic really. And I've only just realised what the matter was - at the time I was quite baffled.

sakura · 28/02/2011 09:12

I know, when you try to imagine yourself behaving like these men do their behaviour seems ludicrous. Exactly like me trying to tell him (in the park on a sunny afternoon) that he should become a radical feminist. Just because he's got the powers that be behind him, he thinks he can behave like that. The Bastard.

I was channelling this board, honestly I was. And Mary Daly. If I hadn't been immersed in feminism for the past year or so I would have found myself agreeing to "pop in" to the church or something.

sakura · 28/02/2011 09:14

And you're right "as they would with a child, but without any room for indulgence"

Spot on, SQ

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 28/02/2011 09:14

do we all need to read Mary Daly then Sakura?

sakura · 28/02/2011 09:19

I think it's a handy book to be carrying in your bag if a random passing priest tries convert you (!WTF!)

sakura · 28/02/2011 09:21

She's got other books, this is on of her first. Dittany is probably the best to ask on which is the best

SardineQueen · 28/02/2011 09:21

I think we all need to go to Japan so that we can have some "answering back" training with Sakura.

(God what a FAB idea!)

sakura · 28/02/2011 09:28

That is a good idea SQ

Prolesworth · 28/02/2011 09:38

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Prolesworth · 28/02/2011 09:45

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swallowedAfly · 28/02/2011 09:45

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sakura · 28/02/2011 09:51

It's the very people who can't handle being spoken to like that themselves, who tend to behave like this, isn't it

swallowedAfly · 28/02/2011 09:55

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swallowedAfly · 28/02/2011 09:56

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aviatrix · 28/02/2011 10:21

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lifeissweet · 28/02/2011 10:31

Brilliant Sakura. I wish I'd seen that.

Sorry to jump in and invade, but I have just been called a militant feminist on my thread about the toy kitchen. I think it was meant to be an insult. Just jumped in here to see if I feel more at home on here.

LadyBiscuit · 28/02/2011 10:33

:o at everyone going to Japan to practice answering back.

Good on you sakura. I find evangelical types very difficult to deal with. I am polite, polite, polite, then get very angry and shout which is really not a good way of dealing with things.

Did anyone else except for me and proles watch South Riding? Has anyone read the book? I found it really disturbing watching last night

SardineQueen · 28/02/2011 10:38

I once dealt with doorstepping christians of some sort thus (was in a silly mood):

Couple: We have come to tell you the happy news about Jesus. Have you heard the news?
Me (very enthusiastically) Yes! Yes I have!
Couple (slightly taken aback): Oh right. Well we are here to spread the message of the lord. Do you feel at one with the lord?
Me (super enthsiastically): Oh yes! I feel a great connection, and as a family we worship regularly, most days!
Couple: Erm right then. Bye (and they sloped off)

Not as good as Sakura's, but was quite funny Grin

vezzie · 28/02/2011 10:41

Yes, we all need to read Mary Daly!

She died a couple of years ago, but a few years before that I sent her an email and she replied. I was overjoyed. She was very kind.

When I discovered Mary Daly - by chance, browsing in a bookshop when I was at college - I felt a huge rush. I felt as if I was on drugs, a sense of dazzling revelation. I bought the book and took it home and didn't stop reading it and felt tearfully relieved as if a big sister I hadn?t known about had suddenly appeared and started sorting out a crowd of play ground bullies.

vezzie · 28/02/2011 10:43

Well done Sakura!

lifeissweet · 28/02/2011 10:44

I love that as an avoidance tactic, SardineQueen Grin

However, I think it's amazing to argue with them and actually win. I usually find that Christians have an answer for everything which is usually that you are arrogant for questioning the great mystery of God, or other such crap.

I find the whole exercise of arguing with them frustrating and futile so heartily applaud anyone who takes them on and stumps them.

EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 28/02/2011 10:49

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