Feminism chat thread II

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Since it looks like the first chat thread is about to fill up, here's the next one all ready and waiting.

Think of it as the gated commune with babysitting on demand and gorgeous poolboys serving the drinks :o

Can I ask those of you who encouraged me to look into the prospect of actually doing a PhD at some point, please just have a quick look over www.mumsnet.com/Talk/student_parents/1024850-Searching-for-fellow-PhD-students?msgid=24058403#24058403 (at the end of the thread) and see if you can help me work out the topic my idea would come under?

May I just have a little think-aloud on the "(why) isn't every woman a feminist?" question? (inspired by one of the intro threads and the Nicola Horlick thread)

Lots of women have said things along the lines of "oh surely every rational woman / person is really a feminist, how can you think that women aren't as good as men?" well I think that devalues feminism because it completely underestimates the scale of paradigm shift that has yet to take place and plays into the hands of the "what's the point, we have equality" brigade.

There are many reasons why a woman might not be a feminist and one of them might be that she is a member of a major religion and has come to sincerely believe that women do not deserve the same things as men. (some of these religions pay lip service to a "different but equal" idea but as a woman you know perfectly well that this is bollocks and you might, in all sincerity, striving for humility etc, accept it.)
Another reason might be that you just can't imagine changing everything, the upheaval would be worse than the best possible outcome, you are doing ok according to the rules of the current game and you can't imagine how you might do if the whole thing was thrown up in the air and redistributed.

Anyway I am not defending not being a feminist but I want to register that I think it is a mistake to underplay how many people sincerely hold non feminist attitudes like, eg, women's work comes for free. I know loads of people, men, women, on here, irl, who think that women should just get on with doing things that men should be thanked and / or paid for. Changing this idea that women's time is just sort of up for grabs for anyone who asks for it is HUGE - for instance - and we are nowhere near there.

I don't think we are going to get anywhere while we persist in maintaining the illusion that all reasonable people think that women should be free. Most "reasonable" people think that women should be free-ish, except for being available for extra unpaid work which they aren't even really allowed to mention, because that is "strident" and "petty" etc.

PS of course the unpaid work thing is just an example and trivial compared to the generally held belief that women are available to be fucked willingly or otherwise, or other more horrific inflections of the belief that women's bodies are generally at the disposal of the world.

AliceWorld wrote - "I dreamt about you all last night we met up in the car park... And none of you looked like I'd imagined."

How did we look in your dream and how had you imagined us before your dream?

(Hoping I was included )

That's a good question. You see I hadn't actually imagined you, so I just dreamt that you didn't look like I imagined. So I imagined, that I imagined that you didn't look like like I imagined. There are so many layers of imagination there I think I need to lie down.

And you were all there of course

I was Proles.

vezzie wrote - "oh surely every rational woman / person is really a feminist, how can you think that women aren't as good as men?" well I think that devalues feminism because it completely underestimates the scale of paradigm shift that has yet to take place and plays into the hands of the "what's the point, we have equality" brigade."

You've raised some good points.

I think some people think being a feminist is as easy as self-declaring "I am a feminist", end of story. I think there is more too it than that. It's not easy or trivial. If one is to be serious about it, it means lifestyle changes and criticism of situations and other people, as well as lots of self-criticism. That can be pretty "heavy" stuff to deal with, when real life is going on all around you.

The hard work thing is exactly right, vesuvia. And I think that's why this board gets a hard time from people who are don't see why they can't just make the declaration. In addition, I think a lot of people feel they have a lot to lose if society changes in the way a lot of us would like. Actually, they don't just feel it, they are right.

Even more resolute in my feminism today after reading some threads and watching that programme about midwives in Liberia.

I watched that midwife programme too, Aye. It was a lot better than I'd thought, and very women-centric (might sound obvious, but I mean the way the whole thing looked at the lives of the midwives as well, and the pride they take).

On a totally different note (randomness = the hallmark of a chat thread, surely) I've been working on a project with a man, the odd thing is that he always holds doors open for me, insists I go first etc. It is very polite, and nice in a way (I always hold doors open for people too, of course) but this does sort of remind me "you are a woman, we both know this" every time we go through a door (which is A LOT). Does anyone else feel like this? He is not a sexist tosser, he is actually pretty great and this is obviously a habit he has had ingrained in him. I quite like it, but at the same time it feels silly and a bit fake, and - like I said - very much keeps in mind that I am a Lady etc.

you have to start opening doors for him.
treat these little courtesies as thoroughly desirable things which should be practiced by both sexes.

I try, I really do, seth. But if we're in a hurry there's only a certain amount of time to be spent in a door-side standoff. Yes I'm often to be found offering my coat to chilly gentlemen etc, with varying degrees of acceptance. :)

ElephantsAndMiasmas I'm sure you are a lady 'cos you open doors for people. Good for you. You deserve to have someone open doors for you too. These courtesies are actually quite nice and are not necessarily loaded (or shouldn't be) even if they do follow certain conventions. It's good that people have such habits ingrained into them. There are plenty-enough pretty unpleasant habits about, or lack of habits, that signify disregard and unconcern or a 'what's in it for me' mentality. Maybe of all the things you might object to, having a man open a door for you is a convention you could allow him and yourself to indulge in. Maybe it is no more than an affirmation in its own style, usually also contended on feminist threads, that women are the fairer sex (sorry, ever so slightly mischievous here ). In any event, pretty inoffensive. It's usually the 'actually pretty great' that determines these things. To receive a kindness from an 'actually pretty great' person can be accepted I think.

Yes well I do partly agree with what you're saying, Andre :o Obviously I am not making a fuss about this at work, did think of asking him why he did it but it just seemed churlish. It doesn't upset me or anything, it's more that it gives me this split feeling. One half is obviously from the 19th century and finds it charming. The other half wants to say oh for christ's sake, let me open to door for you for once, I have arms man.