Sexism in Foulkes On Fiction

[charitygirl]

Did anyone see this on Saturday - the theme was 'The Lover'? I settled in for a happy hour of 19th century literature, including lots by women, and had to turn off after about 15 minutes because I was nearly in tears!

The rot set in while they were discussing Tess of the D'Urbervilles - a book I admit I love a lot. I could not believe what the male talking heads (and they were all men) were saying:

• Alain de Boton laughing blokily with Sebastian Foulkes about how Hardy was clearly sexually obsessed with Tess, and that the result was a character all men could get an erection for, particularly as she is so submissive and things 'just happen to her'. No! Men repeatedly choose to abuse her!
• Foulkes describing the scene where Alec rapes Tess as 'Alec could no longer control his desire for her'. No! Alec chooses to rape her.
• Simon Schama talking about how Tess is 'confused' by her body, and the 'effect it has on men'. No! Men use Tess's beauty to excuse their treatment of her - both Alec and Angel do this.
• Foulkes describing how Hardy leaves it ambivalent as to whether Tess is raped or unenthusiastically consents to sex with Alec. No! Even given the typically vague 19th century description, it is clear that either (a) Tess acquiesces because she literally has no experience of non-acquiescence and is scared of Alec, or (b) is asleep. Either of which means, effectively, she is raped.

I'm not saying Hardy ws a 'feminist' in any recognisable sense, and Tess is not that realistic a character, perhaps. But I could not believe the sexist way they framed the discussion, the simplistic descriptions of rape, or the utter lack of sympathy for Tess (other than possibly as someone 'so sexy she's doomed'). I had to turn over then so maybe/hopefully the conversation improved.

No women on the panel then? And since when were Simon Schama or Alain de talking-out-of-his-Boton experts on Thomas Hardy?

Silly questions, I know...

Yes yes yes I saw it too and was filled with disgust at this collection of men - most, as David says, nothing to do with the subject at all - licking their lips in the contemplation of what IIRC is a teenage rape victim. Who was the one talking his erection FFS? And yes I also fumed at "things happen to her" - no, these bastards in the book DO things to her. One of them described her as "loamy" FFS, as if she were an allotment to be tilled, not a woman.

I was shouting along the lines of "Virginia Woolf did you type in vain?" It was like a Festival of the Male Gaze.

Mmm I didn't notice it at the time but I see your point

I caught the end of Book Club on Radio 4 on Sunday with Mariella Frostrup & apparently the week before she had given Sebastian Foulkes a hard time for not featuring enough (or any?) women, both authors and heroines, on the show. They called in author Kate Mosse to give her own top 5 female writers instead.

And there were many letters in response, some saying that M F had "boringly" let her feminist principles take over but there were many letters in support of the hard time she had given him.

I don't think I'll be watching this programme. Sounds like I'd be throwing things at the tv after a few minutes.

I just so wanted it to be good :(

I did learn several things though.

a) that Pride and Prejudice is all about Mr Darcy - and specifically his saving, by the minor character E Bennett, from what is possibly an attack of depression.

b) that women are not permitted to have a journey/character development of any kind if there's a man around who could be (seen to be) doing it instead.

c) That most critics and modern novelists are men

d) That it's appropriate to talk about the author and/or reader's personal genital state in discussion of rape in a seemingly normal/literary/non-asking-about-your-cock programme on TV

My dad also watched it, he's a massive Hardy fan and was furious about what was said about Tess. Turning a tragic novel about class and sex injustice and the double standards some men have about women, into a submission-themed wankfest = not generally pleasing, Sebastian.

You know apart from the Tess thing, the part that pissed me off the most was the interpretation of P&P as being all about Darcy and his personal redemption. Who is that Elizabeth woman who seems to have had a bit of a change of heart? Who are those other (4, count 'em) girls living in her house, notably one Jane? Who is Charlotte Lucas? Who is Mrs Bennett? I was frankly flabbergasted at the idea that P&P is a story about Fitzwilliam Darcy, primarily, when it is Elizabeth whose thoughts you follow, whose boredom and anger and sadness and happiness and discomfort you track through the book.

Did they even mention that Pride and Prejudice was written by a woman, a woman who never wrote a scene with men where there is no woman present?

I saw it and thought the same thing. I didn't just think it was rubbish from a feminist perspective, I actually thought it was rubbish overall.

I thought SF selected quite odd books to make his point (maybe he based the selection just on which books had been made into well known films/TV adaptations to make for better viewing). I also thought he missed a lot of what I would consider to be the main points of each book. Tess with no mention of the role of women and how little control working class women had over their lives. Lady Chatterly with not a single mention of class. The End of the Affair (one of my favourite books) with not a single mention of Greene's and Bendrix's Catholic guilt.

I also nearly fell off the sofa laughing the week before when SF took us through his pick of great literary heroes (again some odd choices) ...including one of his own books!

I like SF as an author but having seen him on this series I've decided he's a smug, egotistical fool!

Didn't see this (and glad I didn't from what is being described), but how can you say Pride and Prejudice is all about Darcy - the clue is in the title guys Pride (his) and Prejudice (hers)...FFS

Rosa - Do you really like SF as an author? Can I just ask which books? I haven't enjoyed any of his books that I've tried. I know it's highly subjective and down to personal preferences, but I'm just curious.

Yes, I remember liking Birdsong when I first read it a million years ago (I should qualify this by saying that I have a terrible memory for books that I've read so I couldn't tell you the first thing about it other than it was about WW1 and I liked it). I also liked Engleby.

I take it you're not a big fan Alexpolismum?!

I HATED Birdsong.....everyone else was raving about it and I just couldn't finish it!

Seriously Rosa?!! I was worried he was about to start talking about Birdsong for a minute in this week's. :o What a fool!

I quite liked the war bits of Birdsong, right after the gratuitous shagging finished in the first few chapters. Come to think of it the woman in that was a bit "loamy" if by "loamy" one means "has no discernible point except for the male author/readers to get a stiffy over".

You're right as well about missing the point, I haven't read The End of the Affair but when that bit came on my dad started saying "this is a book about how excessive catholicism ruins your life" and there was barely a word spoken.

Am pretty as well at what was seemingly Seb's main premise, that in ye olde dayes characters couldn't have sex AND love, and this has now changed. I mean, wtf?

And YES YES Pride and Prejudice makes it perfectly clear from the start (i.e. the front cover) that it's about both of them. They both have to get over themselves in order to grow up and be happy together. No-one is being SAVED fgs.

Why Blackduck? As I say, I can't really remember it but I remember liking it.

And, I know she's not a "lover" so ok to have left her out, but can I just say, the Lady Catherine de Bourgh/Elizabeth Bennett face off is one of the best scenes in all literature. :)

Good point about no men-only scenes in Austen, too. Not mentioned. Obviously.

I also hated Birdsong! Everyone else was telling me how good it was, so I thought I'd try it, but I couldn't see what all the fuss was about. I finished it, in the hope that by the end I would have found something, but no. Perhaps it just wasn't for me!

At least we didn't have to look at him talking about Atonement. That truly is a loathsome book.

In fact, has anyone else noticed the vast creepiness of McEwan?

Oh no, I liked Atonement and I like McEwan . Should I shuffle off to another thread that caters for MNers with dubious literary tastes?

I do agree that McEwan is seriously creepy though. I've just finished reading The Innocent and it was so creepy/gruesome that I really thought it was going to give me nightmares.

Oh I'm so pleased you all agree! I thought it was one of the most spectactular 'missings of point' that I'd ever seen.

And yes - since when is P&P about Darcy? It's these kind of prigrammes where you realise that the 'liberal intelligentsia' has no more comprehension of women as REAL HUMAN BEINGS than does the rabid right.

and now I hate everything.

I had SF pegged as a self-satisfied misogynist twunt loooooong ago and therefore purposely avoided his onanistic ramblings. Hurrah! :)

I am feeling the rage on behalf of Lizzie though

I was idly musing about whether the feminist book club ever does fiction or about whether we could have a fiction thread? Would anyone be interested? We could do some classics to start with?