Sexism in Foulkes On Fiction

[charitygirl]

Did anyone see this on Saturday - the theme was 'The Lover'? I settled in for a happy hour of 19th century literature, including lots by women, and had to turn off after about 15 minutes because I was nearly in tears!

The rot set in while they were discussing Tess of the D'Urbervilles - a book I admit I love a lot. I could not believe what the male talking heads (and they were all men) were saying:

• Alain de Boton laughing blokily with Sebastian Foulkes about how Hardy was clearly sexually obsessed with Tess, and that the result was a character all men could get an erection for, particularly as she is so submissive and things 'just happen to her'. No! Men repeatedly choose to abuse her!
• Foulkes describing the scene where Alec rapes Tess as 'Alec could no longer control his desire for her'. No! Alec chooses to rape her.
• Simon Schama talking about how Tess is 'confused' by her body, and the 'effect it has on men'. No! Men use Tess's beauty to excuse their treatment of her - both Alec and Angel do this.
• Foulkes describing how Hardy leaves it ambivalent as to whether Tess is raped or unenthusiastically consents to sex with Alec. No! Even given the typically vague 19th century description, it is clear that either (a) Tess acquiesces because she literally has no experience of non-acquiescence and is scared of Alec, or (b) is asleep. Either of which means, effectively, she is raped.

I'm not saying Hardy ws a 'feminist' in any recognisable sense, and Tess is not that realistic a character, perhaps. But I could not believe the sexist way they framed the discussion, the simplistic descriptions of rape, or the utter lack of sympathy for Tess (other than possibly as someone 'so sexy she's doomed'). I had to turn over then so maybe/hopefully the conversation improved.

good idea, unrulysun, are you going to start a thread?

I think it's a bit of a feminist catchphrase LeninGrad. Seen it lots of places.

Feminism enriches my life 100%, and the more 'radical' I get the more it does so, but it does have the side effect of making even a programme about books I love seem hateful.

To put it more simply, once you see shit, you can't unsee it, innit.

Blue pill red pill Charitygirl ;)

I could start a thread - which books would we want to discuss and would we need time to read them?

Might get flamed here, but I think Hardy does intend it to be ambivalent re whether Alex rapes or seduces Tess (i.e. whether he forces her/she's asleep, or whether she submits because she feels she can't say no due to her status relative to his). Either way, he's still a [insert word of choice here] but I think Hardy still intends us to like Alec more than Angel who really is a prize shit.

Didn't see the programme though.

I didn't watch the programme precisely because I think he is a twat and because I heard Mariella Frostrup interviewing him and knew this programme would make me want to shout and throw things at the TV.

I wish I'd not been right in all truth :(

Oh god. I have to watch this on iplayer now...there goes work.

Really BaggedandTagged. Haven't read Tess for a long time but I remember Alec as truly hateful and Angel as just a bit weak and pathetic.

Interesting baggedandtagged. I don't AT ALL think Hardy wants us to like Alec but i agree he forcefully makes the point that high and mighty Angel is no better as he destroys Tess's life just as effectively as Alec does, by being a puritannical, judgmental, unempathetic knob.

It is still Alec who leads Tess to her death tho.

I've watched half of this now and agree with all comments here.

• what qualifies Alain de Boton or Simon Schama as literary critics? One's a philosopher, one's a historian.

• only one woman commenter - Helen Fielding.

• BOAK at AdB's obsession with penises of dead men.

• do we really need another discussion / TV show about P&P and WT? They are great novels but seriously they are 200 years old. Plenty of contemporary novels on the subject.

• I don't know what it says about this programme that Roman Polanski was a better mediator of the story of a teenage rape victim than SF, AdB or SS.

There are bigger issues here too - why is all serious literary criticism framed and led by men? This is not paranoia - Mslexia does regular analysis of the broadsheet book pages and male writers dominate despite more books being written by women and the overwhelming majority of fiction consumers being female. If women stopped buying books there would be no publishing industry.

I think there is more than a little jealousy - especially as the majority of big-selling commercial authors are female even in the non-traditional genres like crime, horror and thriller.

WT = Wuthering Heights. Obv.

i saw this. proper yuck, i thought it, and i don't think it deserves any deeper analysis than this - middle of the road male novelist contemplates some filmed versions of books only to the extent of elaborating on his own prejudices.

yes, it is interesting, though, the framing question, tondelay, but sadly, i feel the answer lies in the generous interest of many women and the shocking self-absorption of many men: women don't turn it off/stop reading because of the sex of the author/critic, while clearly many men do (i'm trying to be fair with all those manys).

"middle of the road male novelist contemplates some filmed versions of books only to the extent of elaborating on his own prejudices."

Totally agree. How you can talk about P&P, TotD and LCL for example without talking about class & socio-economic issues is hilariously sad. How supposedly intelligent and literary people can talk about these books without placing them firmly in their social context dismays me.

yy Dittany! I'm not blaming Emily Bronte but I hate how WH has become an example to 'prove' the point that 'women love bad boys/bastards'.

That's NOT the point the book makes.

I've been unimpressed by Faulkes since that time when he criticised the Quran, only to hurriedly take it all back when he realised he might end up as the next Salman Rushdie

www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/aug/24/sebastian-faulks-attacks-quran

Ha, just picked up a book in the library with the front cover review 'the women characters are brilliantly depicted' - Sebastian Faulks

I can't believe that anyone can buy SF's depictions of women. He seems to sit down to start his characterisation with a sheel boldly inscribed Angel/Whore, fill in the relevant columns, add a name and some breasts and proceed to checkout.

I went to see that literary quiz on R4 being recorded once and I was somewhat surprised that he managed to keep his hands off himself for 40 minutes. He shouldn't be allowed to say 'Jane Austen'.

unrulysun - that's charlotte bleeding gray that is. they want it next for book club in these here parts and all i could think of to say was, 'oh, she dyes her pubes'. that's what charlotte gray reduced me to. haven't touched it in years. it's still on my shelf. free to a good home.

fortunately, we can't get this prog. maybe there is a god.

I thought Mariella Frostrup was extremely forbearing towards that self-important puffed up cockswinger.

Why can't she do a programme about books? Shall we lobby the BBC to let Mariella, Kate Moss and Jo Brand sit around talking about books because lets face it, all of them are going to make more sense that those dicks. And then they can have one man on with them. I nominate Richard E Grant, Tim Burton or Justin Bieber.

I am fucking sick of dickswinging men on the BBC. We are fucking half the licence fee payers, why are we not being represented? Why are our representation in literary fiction not being discussed intelligently?

justin bieber?

i'm having some real problems with irony this week.

I would so watch Kate Moss talking feminist lit crit with Jo Brand and Mariella...

oh...

Kate MOSSE

No, Kate Moss.

I mean, why bother getting in an intelligent writer?

They don't fucking bother if they've got dicks.