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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Acquiescence

313 replies

AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 20:49

Not sure whether this counts as a feminist discussion, but I'm giving it a try. I mentioned on another thread that, after seeing last year's TV programme about black-cab rapist John Worboys, I realised he 'had' me, too. I rang the helpline and the police were brilliant - they confirmed my story and discussed the case as much as I wanted to.

Bizarrely, the discovery was actually helpful to me. I'd been struggling with "denial of abuse" issues so, for me, this single episode (which I barely remember) represented all the other half-remembered and anxiously dismissed incidents of abuse that kept me questioning myself. I now accept that I have been more seriously abused, and more often, than I can consciously recognise. This denial is part of the issue I wish to discuss.

John Worboys sexually assaulted upwards of 400 women: probably hundreds more. His method was always the same - a little story, a little drinky that was drugged. Now this is what bothers me: up to 700 of us accepted that drink.

We trust London cabbies, sometimes literally with our lives. Worboys abused that position of trust. But - still! A cab driver gives you a drink, and you don't smell anything fishy? I bet none of us would have smiled and said "cheers" if an illegal minicab driver had done it. Not a single one of us rang the police, or the taxi office, to say "Driver number XXXX has just done something weird."

We trusted hansom cab drivers - rightly so. But why did we allow this trust to override our common sense? We all registered that this was "odd" behaviour, so why didn't we just get the hell out of there and press Dial? What happened to our natural alarm bells?

Answering for myself, I have to assume I was so deeply programmed to TRUST A MAN IN A POSITION OF HONOUR that I had no self-preservation instincts to go with that. In my case, this is the factor that led to my putting up with abuse in many situations. I was also, as mentioned, extremely willing to forget, deny, tell myself I'd got it wrong, etc, etc. I can trace this directly to my parental background. Did all 400 of Worboy's passengers come from families like mine?

How did Worboys know which women to trick?

I asked the cop how come so many women had bought his story. He said he wished he knew that - as more & more evidence came to light, they found it hard to believe he was getting to first base as easily as he did.

As some of you know, I'm committed to helping women in abusive relationships re/gain a sense of their own right to respect and safety. Most of you know at least something about the dynamics of abuse. Many people are conditioned to consider themselves less important than others; it's common for a woman to count herself less than a man. But 400 Londoners, each with enough independence to be getting a cab on her own at night ...? That's a lot!

If self-abandonment and self-denial are THAT prevalent amongst women, then feminism has a far bigger problem than I ever suspected.

I'm not sure if anybody's able or willing to pick this up - it's more of an emotional/psychological angle than this board's usual. It's both personally and politically interesting to me - what do you think?

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 14/02/2011 12:46

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ThePosieParker · 14/02/2011 12:51

I agree Lenin, but whilst we wait for that to happen we need to ensure our daughters are equipped to deal with these idiots. My boys are being educated all the way along, but meeting other boys it's simply not the case.

I had a convo with a friend, a clever friend, re Helena Kennedy's involvement in the Assange case. My friend spouted nonsense like some women do make it up, rape is a grey area Blush like I used to, women still believe that other women make it up or are confused, and that some men don't know they are committing rape.

dittany · 14/02/2011 13:53

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ThePosieParker · 14/02/2011 13:57

Yes, I can't believe for one second that a man doesn't know when he's raping someone.

LeninGrad · 14/02/2011 14:28

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beijingaling · 14/02/2011 14:36

But I bet the man from that thread would never in a million years see what he did as rape.

beijingaling · 14/02/2011 14:38

Also I too have been coerced into encounters I didn't want because I was worried about offending and too embarrassed to say no because saying no was rude or whatever. I bet none of those guys have lost a seconds sleep over the coercion either.

dawntigga · 14/02/2011 14:42

Totally shallow and off topic.

Saw the title to this thread and hoped it was for baby names.

WandersOffToBeShallowElsewhereTiggaxx

ThePosieParker · 14/02/2011 14:45

No, none of those guys lose sleep....I imagine it's a victory for them. But the first boy I slept with when I was nearly 17 was delightful. We were together for three months and I made the suggestion and he checked, checked and checked again that it was really what I wanted. Lovely....still think of him Smile.

ThePosieParker · 14/02/2011 14:51

No, none of those guys lose sleep....I imagine it's a victory for them. But the first boy I slept with when I was nearly 17 was delightful. We were together for three months and I made the suggestion and he checked, checked and checked again that it was really what I wanted. Lovely....still think of him Smile.

SuchProspects · 14/02/2011 15:02

It always seem to come back to what women could or should or do, how about aiming all this at those who assault or coerce? How about the message going out to them that it is despicable behaviour and society just won't stand for it.

Women telling men they are out of line when they are is part (and only part) of society just not standing for it. It is one of the ways that the message that the behaviour is despicable gets out.

I totally understand people being upset at the idea that the only thing that needs to happen is for women to be more assertive - that's madness. But when I read comments about how what has to happen is men need to just stop something I am left thinking "isn't that the point of telling them?" Social change doesn't just happen. I don't think looking at ways to change a situation is the same as laying blame for it.

In any case I think women should be (very generally) more assertive. Apart from the fact that being compliant doesn't stop women from being attacked, acquiescence is about subsuming part of your character because the other person is supposedly more important, and that's just crap.

So even if it has no impact on whether women are assaulted or not, I do think we should be teaching our daughters to stand up for themselves more.

QueenBathsheba · 14/02/2011 22:02

Until recently I worked with Key stage 1 and 2 children. It was quite revealing in terms of the different gender stereotypical behaviour.

It was evident even with such young children that girls are very keen to please and gain approval. They teneded to do this with passive, quiet and unassertive behaviour.

The boys were far more assertive and very driven by having their imeadiate need for attention met. They were physically boisterous, noisy and you could see in groups that they sought to establish a pecking order. Most of the boys wanted dominance.

I'm not sure how you can counter some of this. I spoke to one headmistress and she felt that more could be done to encourage girls to be assertive, but didn't offer suggestions for how this could be achieved.

swallowedAfly · 15/02/2011 07:44

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swallowedAfly · 15/02/2011 07:46

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vezzie · 15/02/2011 08:56

back tracking a bit - I agree that people know when they are forcing sex as opposed to when they are engaging in sexual behaviour with consent. But I don't believe that they always know that the former is wrong. Looks crazy written down like that. But I believe it. (Not that that is an excuse - it is wrong obviously) Even on here you can see people passionately arguing that, in certain circumstances, someone forcing sexual activity on someone else was ok, because - the gist of the argument usually is - it is a normal part of life and happens all the time.
(An interestingly circular argument:
feminist says: rape happens all the time and is not ok
nonfeminist says: rape is not ok, but it doesn't happen much, it is an extreme thing that happens occasionally, perpetrated by weirdos on those who don't take enough care, and you are angry and bitter to think it happens more.
feminist says: but what about x, y, z
nonfeminist says: x y z are not rape, they can't be, they happen all the time)

I lost a job once because at a drunken night out I pointed my finger in a boss's face and said, "DO. NOT. TOUCH. ME. AGAIN. I MEAN. IT." (as a last resort - after the usual edging away, trying to interpose other people, laghingly brushing his hand off, etc - got me nowhere). I had been told by other women, "you can't stop him. You just can't. You have to put up with it." Oh, there's always something you can do, I arrogantly and wrongly thought. anyway very soon after i got my p45 and i found - in a very very minor way in the grand scheme of things -that sometimes the things that you can do exact a penalty. (luckikly I can live without that job - not all penalties can be treated that lightly)

RoyalWelsh · 15/02/2011 10:12

I'm really glad I came across this thread. It has made me realise that perhaps I am not to blame for something that happened to me when I was 16 (now 23.) To cut a long story short I was abused by a cab driver without being raped (although he said that we could have had sex but he didn't have a condom) and I have spent the seven years since feeling marginally guilty. In my logical head I know it wasn't my fault, but in reality I feel as though it was. That was the main reason I never told anyone that coudl have made a difference, not my parents or the police. I was 16 and had been out to a club with my friends and had got drunk. We hopped in the nearest available cab at the end of the night (we thought about it in the next couple of days and realised it was probably illegal) and spent the journey home talking about how many boys we had kissed and how drunk we were and how we wished the night didn't have to end and how my phone had been stolen. All big come ons, right? I was last in the cab after dropping my friends off and he turned round and said to me "Do you fancy going somewhere for a quick kiss and a cuddle?" and obviously, I didn't want to be rude so I said ever so politely, "no thankyou, I would just like to go home now please." To which he replied, "But you said you didn't want the night to end"

I can't agree more with what a lot of people have said - I feel very strongly that I was desperate to be polite, that being polite would make him see I didn't deserve this. I still think the overwhelming urge to be 'polite' has the potential to put people (is it just me?) in dangerous situations. I still don't hesitate to let men in the front door when I am on my own, just because they say they need to read the meter - in fact it's something my partner has told me off for before.

I love how people on here have given examples of the lessons they are teaching their children - I grew up with a mother who reinforced my belief that women were 'second class citizens' and I am going to make a mental note of the things suggested on here. I want to grow strong, capable daughters who aren't afraid to say no.

Sorry for the length of the post, I just am so relieved that I found this thread.

SardineQueen · 15/02/2011 15:39

The thing I wonder is, with men like that cab driver, do they realise what they are doing is wrong? Or do they see that level of coercion as acceptable?

Do many men just not get this? Given that from the year dot they are socialised that sex is something they have to "get" from women at all costs, and while most will draw the line at violence / the woman crying / really obviously they don't want to - that anything else goes? That all's fair in love and war - even if it means not taking no for an answer from a 16yo girl, knowing full well they will be intimidated and only going along with it as they are scared or just don't know what to do? Do a lot of men see that as a reasonable approach to "get" sex - do they just not care?

This is what I don't get.

swallowedAfly · 15/02/2011 16:18

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HerBeX · 15/02/2011 16:44

Yes there seems to be an assumption that a man has a right to talk/ empathise Hmm/ persuade/ coerce/ force a woman into sex she doesn't want.

It's a difficult area because there are occasions genuinely when people can be talked/ empathised/ persuaded into sex they initially don't want. Many relationships have had at least one instance of sex occurring where one of the partners hasn't felt like it to begin with, but after a few minutes of foreplay, has thought "oh I don't know, I might fancy a bit of the old other after all". We all know that that happens and that's OK because the people concerned feel safe and happy and OK with it all.

I think this sort of situation which many people are familiar with, leads to all this bollocks about "grey areas". In the situation of the cab driver, it is so obviously inappropriate that how can anyone genuinely be confused that his behaviour was OK? And in Assange's case, how can it be OK to do that while holding a woman down FGS?

AnyFucker · 15/02/2011 17:23

Vezzie, I am glad this thread has made you feel better about something bad that happened to you x

vezzie · 15/02/2011 17:33

AF, I think you mean Slightobsession

Slightobsession - same as AF said

vezzie · 15/02/2011 17:38

There is a thread in AIBU now entitled:

how much sexual harrassment from other/older boys should a 10 year old girl get?

the OP appears to be serious in needing guidance as to how much is just the right amount. fortunately last time I looked mn was saying "none".

Prolesworth · 15/02/2011 17:38

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AnyFucker · 15/02/2011 17:39

sorry, yes

my mistake

SardineQueen · 15/02/2011 19:26

proles one of the men on one of the assange threads also said that pinning someone down with your bodyweight = missionary position. I pointed out that it is not usual for men to transfer their entire body weight onto a woman in any sexual position. Apparently this view means that I can't get laid Hmm

They are nuts, the lot of them.