Acquiescence

[AgeingGrace]

Not sure whether this counts as a feminist discussion, but I'm giving it a try. I mentioned on another thread that, after seeing last year's TV programme about black-cab rapist John Worboys, I realised he 'had' me, too. I rang the helpline and the police were brilliant - they confirmed my story and discussed the case as much as I wanted to.

Bizarrely, the discovery was actually helpful to me. I'd been struggling with "denial of abuse" issues so, for me, this single episode (which I barely remember) represented all the other half-remembered and anxiously dismissed incidents of abuse that kept me questioning myself. I now accept that I have been more seriously abused, and more often, than I can consciously recognise. This denial is part of the issue I wish to discuss.

John Worboys sexually assaulted upwards of 400 women: probably hundreds more. His method was always the same - a little story, a little drinky that was drugged. Now this is what bothers me: up to 700 of us accepted that drink.

We trust London cabbies, sometimes literally with our lives. Worboys abused that position of trust. But - still! A cab driver gives you a drink, and you don't smell anything fishy? I bet none of us would have smiled and said "cheers" if an illegal minicab driver had done it. Not a single one of us rang the police, or the taxi office, to say "Driver number XXXX has just done something weird."

We trusted hansom cab drivers - rightly so. But why did we allow this trust to override our common sense? We all registered that this was "odd" behaviour, so why didn't we just get the hell out of there and press Dial? What happened to our natural alarm bells?

Answering for myself, I have to assume I was so deeply programmed to TRUST A MAN IN A POSITION OF HONOUR that I had no self-preservation instincts to go with that. In my case, this is the factor that led to my putting up with abuse in many situations. I was also, as mentioned, extremely willing to forget, deny, tell myself I'd got it wrong, etc, etc. I can trace this directly to my parental background. Did all 400 of Worboy's passengers come from families like mine?

How did Worboys know which women to trick?

I asked the cop how come so many women had bought his story. He said he wished he knew that - as more & more evidence came to light, they found it hard to believe he was getting to first base as easily as he did.

As some of you know, I'm committed to helping women in abusive relationships re/gain a sense of their own right to respect and safety. Most of you know at least something about the dynamics of abuse. Many people are conditioned to consider themselves less important than others; it's common for a woman to count herself less than a man. But 400 Londoners, each with enough independence to be getting a cab on her own at night ...? That's a lot!

If self-abandonment and self-denial are THAT prevalent amongst women, then feminism has a far bigger problem than I ever suspected.

I'm not sure if anybody's able or willing to pick this up - it's more of an emotional/psychological angle than this board's usual. It's both personally and politically interesting to me - what do you think?

Yes, but that's because it was germane to the discussion at that moment. I then went on to make far broader points.

And yes, it would be a dull board if we all agreed . I'd like to be able to discuss points of view in a spirit of open, friendly debate, as we might if we were having a conversation face to face.

Is it possibly the case that stranger rapes are more likely to be believed as there is more likely to be independent evidence

CCTV
People hearing stuff or seeing the woman being followed
I suspect women are more likely to struggle if it's a stranger (? just a feeling I have) so more injuries
If she is outside she's more likely to have injuries than indoors anyway where there is carpet and sofas and beds and so on
Being found afterwards

Is it actually that outdoor rapes are more likely to be believed than indoor rapes - is that the distinction rather than stranger/non-stranger.

Because I know that if I was at home and opened my door to a salesman and let him in and then he raped me, I would feel that was a much less "reporty" rape than if the same man talked to me outside and then dragged me behind a bush.

could be the out-door in-door distinction, yes
although, maybe not, because a woman is more likely to be raped by an aquaintance who offers to walk her home than by a random stranger [copyright HerBex]

and she probably wouldn't be believed in that situation
well, in any situation, really

Marking my place, was reading this earlier and lost it!

But some of those abhorrent attitudes and flawed thinking about women's sexuality come from women too; women that write in the press, women who sit on juries too. That's why I think it's a mistake to think it is only men who need educating about rape.

I completely agree with this. When my children are older, I won't just be educating my DS about this issue, but my DDs too.

I recall a case in the media a couple of years ago, where the woman had accused a man of rape, saying she had been so drunk she couldn't have given consent. The man was acquitted and one of my friends (a woman) said, 'quite right too, forget too drunk to give consent, more like too drunk to remember giving consent. Drunken slapper.' Then to my horror, another friend agreed with her.

We're never going to get justice for rape victims when men AND women hold such views.

sakura the woman who is raped by an acquaitance who offers to walk her home will presumably often be raped when she lets the man into her house/he forces his way into the house when they get back to where she lives?

I think I'm onto something with this indoor/outdoor thing.

hatterbox there have been surveys which show that women are just as likely as men to spout rape myths, and there is some evidence that women on juries are much less sympathetic to teh victim in rape trials than men.

I agree that the myths need to be tackled at a society level.

When it comes to stopping rape though it's the men who need to be sorted out, as they're the ones doing it. Of course parents and schools play their part in that.

Right, I have now read the whole tread.

Grace, I am sorry that the situation with the taxi driver happened to you, I remember you posting when you realised that you had been a victim to the sexual assault.

How are you feeling about things, now as the thread has evolved, Grace?

yes women have to take responsibility for their own misogynistic views of women. BUt I do think a culture of misogyny encourages this view. It's not as though women decided for themselves that women are natural liars. It's male-dominant misognyistic culture that impresses this opinion upon them. Deep down all women know that women are not really like the stereotype the media portrays of them, [just like we know Hugh Grant's bumbling Englishman impression is nothing like the real Englishmen we know IRL, it's an American-pleasing stereotype] but it's like there's a mental block when it comes to applying what you know about women first hand (would your best friend or mother lie about rape?) and what the culture tells us women are supposed to be like.

SQ, I think the entire discussion we've just had about indoor/outdoor or women's supposed normal behaviour just goes to show how arbitrary it all is. Whether or not you'll be believed in court is so subjective.

I really liked that quote, Lenin