Acquiescence

[AgeingGrace]

Not sure whether this counts as a feminist discussion, but I'm giving it a try. I mentioned on another thread that, after seeing last year's TV programme about black-cab rapist John Worboys, I realised he 'had' me, too. I rang the helpline and the police were brilliant - they confirmed my story and discussed the case as much as I wanted to.

Bizarrely, the discovery was actually helpful to me. I'd been struggling with "denial of abuse" issues so, for me, this single episode (which I barely remember) represented all the other half-remembered and anxiously dismissed incidents of abuse that kept me questioning myself. I now accept that I have been more seriously abused, and more often, than I can consciously recognise. This denial is part of the issue I wish to discuss.

John Worboys sexually assaulted upwards of 400 women: probably hundreds more. His method was always the same - a little story, a little drinky that was drugged. Now this is what bothers me: up to 700 of us accepted that drink.

We trust London cabbies, sometimes literally with our lives. Worboys abused that position of trust. But - still! A cab driver gives you a drink, and you don't smell anything fishy? I bet none of us would have smiled and said "cheers" if an illegal minicab driver had done it. Not a single one of us rang the police, or the taxi office, to say "Driver number XXXX has just done something weird."

We trusted hansom cab drivers - rightly so. But why did we allow this trust to override our common sense? We all registered that this was "odd" behaviour, so why didn't we just get the hell out of there and press Dial? What happened to our natural alarm bells?

Answering for myself, I have to assume I was so deeply programmed to TRUST A MAN IN A POSITION OF HONOUR that I had no self-preservation instincts to go with that. In my case, this is the factor that led to my putting up with abuse in many situations. I was also, as mentioned, extremely willing to forget, deny, tell myself I'd got it wrong, etc, etc. I can trace this directly to my parental background. Did all 400 of Worboy's passengers come from families like mine?

How did Worboys know which women to trick?

I asked the cop how come so many women had bought his story. He said he wished he knew that - as more & more evidence came to light, they found it hard to believe he was getting to first base as easily as he did.

As some of you know, I'm committed to helping women in abusive relationships re/gain a sense of their own right to respect and safety. Most of you know at least something about the dynamics of abuse. Many people are conditioned to consider themselves less important than others; it's common for a woman to count herself less than a man. But 400 Londoners, each with enough independence to be getting a cab on her own at night ...? That's a lot!

If self-abandonment and self-denial are THAT prevalent amongst women, then feminism has a far bigger problem than I ever suspected.

I'm not sure if anybody's able or willing to pick this up - it's more of an emotional/psychological angle than this board's usual. It's both personally and politically interesting to me - what do you think?

she actually said that men's biggest fear when they pass a group of women is to be laughed at. Women's biggest fear when they pass a group of men is death.

BUt I think you're right Chandon in that this is the root of why patriarchies have always been obsessed with keeping women apart

As a teen I was nn 'dirty Pos' because a boy had forced himself on me in a public toilet and wouldn't let me go, with nasty grinning I'm just joking but you will do what I want' sort of way. I guess the level of wanting to please and politeness doesn't extend to many men I've encountered and I wonder why.

I see the beginnings of this is DSs friends, the lack of empathy and belief that they can do whatever they want....not Dss though, in fact I worry that they are too eager to please friends, dd however talks her way in and out of situations and has done from a young age. She has been less likely to hit and more likely to negotiate with friends about what they should play. If her friends don't share she asks them to.

I'm struggling with what I'm trying to say, but if these boys are not shown empathy and are shown the route to what you want is just to take it...accepting that boys fight, boys don't talk things through etc , then no wonder when they reach exploration age with girls they just plough ahead with what they want, regardless.

Posie
Yes I agree, there is a lot to be said for teaching boys. Society does not. I plan to teach DD and DS about porn, and I plan to teach DS about empathy.
It sounds stupid, to have to teach your son this, because of course we all hope our sons naturally have it. BUt I don't see anything wrong in spelling it out to them, in the same way you spell out that stealing is wrong etc. It doesn't mean you expect your kids to steal but they need to know your opinion on it. A lot of this is swept under the carpet because we live in a patriarchy.

I have always said to my boys to look at my face when I'm talking and listen to my tone to judge the meaning of what I'm saying. I have to say they're pretty good at it, some of their friends are dreadful and can't pick up when they smack someone on the head that it's not as funny as they find it....

I had a great opportunity the other day for a little lesson when getting trapped on a road in a stand off. The Afro Caribbean (relevant) male in his sixties saw me turn into a road with cars parked either side in over crowded bristol roads. Instead of pulling in in one of the huge five car spaces on his side he sped up to force me to pull in, in my huge car, to a very small space. As there were cars behind me I refused. After 5 mintes, with six cars behind me, a woman behind got out to ask him to move. I told the children that if Daddy had been driving the man would have pulled in, DH is pretty large. I got out to give the other woman support and the man started effing at me and calling me 'woman' repeatedly. I told him that being a woman was a wonderful thing and not to try to insult me with my gender!

The children asked why I didn't like ebing called 'woman' as I was a woman, I explained that for some men it was a way of being demeaning and implied that it was bad to be a woman. I phoned the p[olice as there was no way of anyone but this driver to move.....whilst on the phone he moved.

I don't see anything wrong in spelling it out to them, in the same way you spell out that stealing is wrong etc. It doesn't mean you expect your kids to steal but they need to know your opinion on it. A lot of this is swept under the carpet because we live in a patriarchy.

That looks like a huge point to me, Sakura.

I'm really startled by how many of us have been sexually abused one way or another, how often and how young! Not that the age of a female target is the crucial factor, but it speaks volumes about our status as sexual objects purely by virtue of our gender. Calling a girl 'sexy', 'dirty', etc by the age of 12 ... it's practically insane, surely?

I was molested by a group of men at 11yo, too, on my way to school. I was rescued by another man passing.

Are there any "unfeminine" women on this thread? I'm wondering whether blokey birds are punished for non-compliance. I wish I'd asked my pal Fi about it! Afaik, she's always very been popular with men & women (she's straight) but I've never discussed such things with her.

posie similar thing the other day with me,during the stand off my 2 ds got out of the car both over 6ft and he moved,he shouted at me that "you women think you are brave when behind the wheel"twat.

With regards to raising dds i always tell mine including the boys,that if someone is asking you to do somthing you dont want to it doesnt matter if you are rude cos i will explain that later for you and you wont be in any trouble.I also never hug or kiss my dcs if they dont want to and always ask permission to go into their rooms(when older)
Small steps but maybe they will help.

Being 'popular' has nothing to do with being abused - very poor self-esxpression there by yours truly. I meant to say her solid & cheerful confidence always led me to believe she hadn't suffered much in the way of abuse - and I wish I had discussed more with her.

I like what you're teaching your DCs, ledkr, Posie & Sakura.

I'm wondering whether blokey birds are punished ... It's more the case that women are punished for existing, isn't it? I just fell into the trap of thinking we somehow invite it; can somehow avoid it :(

I was pretty, or so I thought I can't say really, but told all of the time that I was beautiful. So when blokes said that I had 'nice tits' I thought it was a compliment, even at 15 when the men were 26-30. Perhaps I should refrain from telling my dd, that she's pretty, as much and that someone talking about 'sexual attractiveness' is unacceptable....unless it's invited.

I too wonder whether being 'attractive', I'm really trying not to sound like a dick, is more of a burden when it comes to men and what they want from you. The flip side is being ignored though isn't it. And women can't be universally attractive in other ways like men, men can be funny, wise, successful, articulate, smart....whereas women are bitchy, old, hard nosed career women, smart arses and know alls.

WE have surprises not secrets too! And we do the look at his face! Also we have no kisses or cuddles that they don't want....you sounds like a fab parent Lenin!!

"I was very boyish and think it did work a bit but of course it tips into 'dyke' which although factually correct is not what you want shouted down the street at you." Yes quite.

So we're either pigeon holed into attractive, up for it, ready to be had.....or not.

I told him that being a woman was a wonderful thing and not to try to insult me with my gender!

haha! DId you really. That's brilliant

Exactly Lenin, it's lose-lose for women whichever mannerisms they adopt.

The only way out of this pickle is... Revolution

I said 'don't call me woman' he said ' oh gawd, you are one aren't you' I said 'you're trying to insult me saying 'woman' being a woman is a wonderful thing, do not try and insult me with my gender'....

I guess this all goes back to the objectification of women...you're either available or you're not. We lose the woman behind our judgement of her looks, that's why the objectification argument is more valid now than ever.

yes now more than ever.
I'm reading Charlotte Bronte's Villete. Just read this:
" In a few terse phrases he told me his opinion of, and feeling towards, the actress: he judged her as a woman, not an artist: it was a branding judgement"

Women have always been "women" or "wimmin" first and foremost. Whatever they do or say is always secondary to that.

Chandon that was a great post 8.22

What I plan to do (and my friend with DDs thought was a good idea when I told her, and she's going to do it) is to do some kind of role play which involves the DDs saying NO! - moving away (eg on a bus) - that sort of thing.

Because I know that I have trouble saying this, and I know from experience that once you have done something once it becomes easier. And I hope that if they have done it once in a safe environment - with me - then they will be able to act on their instincts if something happens. Basically I don't want them to sit there like Chandon or me or all of the untold numbers of children who were polite and compliant and did not know what on earth to do.

It sounds OTT to me (role play? for chrissakes! I'm not a role play person ) BUT I need to do something and that's the best I can think of.

Should expand - my friend with DDs has much older children than me and I think she is a great parent and person, so when she said she thought it sounded like a good idea I thought I might have hit on something

SQ...

At twelve I sat in John Lewis Cafe waiting for my parents to get the food, reserving a table. A man, very scruffy possibly homeless, sat on the table. I told him my parents were joining me and he should sit elsewhere. He refused saying there was enough room for him, there was. I pointed to the high breakfast bar type area and said he should sit there. I was very very confident, this didn't stop me at 16 being a pushover, giving boys BJs (only three, not every guy I laid eyes on) under duress. I think that stems from self worth, not just the ability to say no, but recognising that asking something of you that you don't want to give is the part at which a situation becomes tricky....not at the part when you have to refuse, but the person insisting that is the bad person. I wonder if my popularity had been at stake with the homeless guy whether I would have been so insistent?

That's a fabulous idea, SQ.
Most of us only learn this in assertiveness training as adults. Damage has already started by then.

Posie, your point about popularity is a powerful one (I still fret about being liked, even though I know better!) I guess these issues need to be stressed and adapted as kids grow up: boys as well as girls.

Does the new abuse awareness in schools include assertive issues like self-determination and calm refusal?

I agree that in some situations, like rape, it wouldn't matter how you behaved....nothing a victim can do has an effect on the criminal. I'm thinking more about the subtle assaults or coercion. I'm not sure the times that I submitted to do things I didn't really want was about fear of physical harm, but more about not wanting to offend.

In the case of the vile taxi driver, seems to me he possibly tried it on with every lone woman that entered into his cab. These women only had a couple of things in common, they were women and they got into his taxi.