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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Acquiescence

313 replies

AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 20:49

Not sure whether this counts as a feminist discussion, but I'm giving it a try. I mentioned on another thread that, after seeing last year's TV programme about black-cab rapist John Worboys, I realised he 'had' me, too. I rang the helpline and the police were brilliant - they confirmed my story and discussed the case as much as I wanted to.

Bizarrely, the discovery was actually helpful to me. I'd been struggling with "denial of abuse" issues so, for me, this single episode (which I barely remember) represented all the other half-remembered and anxiously dismissed incidents of abuse that kept me questioning myself. I now accept that I have been more seriously abused, and more often, than I can consciously recognise. This denial is part of the issue I wish to discuss.

John Worboys sexually assaulted upwards of 400 women: probably hundreds more. His method was always the same - a little story, a little drinky that was drugged. Now this is what bothers me: up to 700 of us accepted that drink.

We trust London cabbies, sometimes literally with our lives. Worboys abused that position of trust. But - still! A cab driver gives you a drink, and you don't smell anything fishy? I bet none of us would have smiled and said "cheers" if an illegal minicab driver had done it. Not a single one of us rang the police, or the taxi office, to say "Driver number XXXX has just done something weird."

We trusted hansom cab drivers - rightly so. But why did we allow this trust to override our common sense? We all registered that this was "odd" behaviour, so why didn't we just get the hell out of there and press Dial? What happened to our natural alarm bells?

Answering for myself, I have to assume I was so deeply programmed to TRUST A MAN IN A POSITION OF HONOUR that I had no self-preservation instincts to go with that. In my case, this is the factor that led to my putting up with abuse in many situations. I was also, as mentioned, extremely willing to forget, deny, tell myself I'd got it wrong, etc, etc. I can trace this directly to my parental background. Did all 400 of Worboy's passengers come from families like mine?

How did Worboys know which women to trick?

I asked the cop how come so many women had bought his story. He said he wished he knew that - as more & more evidence came to light, they found it hard to believe he was getting to first base as easily as he did.

As some of you know, I'm committed to helping women in abusive relationships re/gain a sense of their own right to respect and safety. Most of you know at least something about the dynamics of abuse. Many people are conditioned to consider themselves less important than others; it's common for a woman to count herself less than a man. But 400 Londoners, each with enough independence to be getting a cab on her own at night ...? That's a lot!

If self-abandonment and self-denial are THAT prevalent amongst women, then feminism has a far bigger problem than I ever suspected.

I'm not sure if anybody's able or willing to pick this up - it's more of an emotional/psychological angle than this board's usual. It's both personally and politically interesting to me - what do you think?

OP posts:
Prolesworth · 15/02/2011 19:30

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HerBeX · 15/02/2011 19:34

I think it probably means that they can't get laid actually.

Because if they transfer all their weight onto their partner in the missionary position, presumably they asphixiate each one in turn.

Fucking wankers.

SardineQueen · 15/02/2011 19:44

Unless they are teeny tiny men who only have sex with rubber dollies.

Grin
HerBeX · 15/02/2011 19:45

Ah yes of course, that would explain how confusing the idea of the missionary position with a real woman would be to them...

Grin

They'll be on again soon.

We're larfing at them you see.

Their biggest fear

SardineQueen · 15/02/2011 19:48

I was thinking they'll be going apopleptic Grin

SGB is the best for this sort if thing.

[wiggling little finger emoticon]

HerBeX · 15/02/2011 19:51

LOL

And then we'll point out that we only hate men who are so rubbish in bed that they don't know how to do sex without asphixiating us.

HerBeX · 15/02/2011 19:53

And that when people talk about making women scream, it shouldn't be because you've just injured her. It's not that kind of screaming, chaps.

swallowedAfly · 15/02/2011 20:01

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Unrulysun · 15/02/2011 21:51

I have had so many conversations about situations like these with so many women :( one friend was analog raped while passed out on a bed at a party, another as a 'birthday present' by the man who took her to Sunday School aged 12. I've been in situations where squirming and laughingly taking someone's hand off me felt like all I could do :( This thread is so useful in explaining

some of this. I have never forgotten my shock at a friend in Cairo when we were 18 - we were standing at a counter signing in at a hotel, one of he men was standing behind us to 'help' and pressing his erect penis into us. My friend turned round, pushed him full in the chest and shouted 'Don't touch me!'

I remember feeling shocked at how rude she had been (!) but also envying her for having that much confidence and ownership of her body. Just seeing someone do it once has made it possible for me to do - I've used that same phrase a number of times. (Although I've also failed to do so when I should have). I totally agree with the idea of role playing with our children.

HerBeX · 15/02/2011 22:17

Perhaps we should add that to sex education lessons:

"if a girl is squirming and giggling and trying to take your hand away from the bits of her body you are touching, that doesn't mean she's playing hard to get, it means she doesn't want you to touch her there, but she is afraid of telling you that straight out in case she makes you so angry that you injure her".

QueenBathsheba · 15/02/2011 22:26

I think it would be more useful to teach young women how to be assertive and how not to give mixed messages.

In terms of men, well what can you do, many seem to have this sense of entitlement.

If you can educate them at all, it needs to be really clear and straight to the point.

Ask, confirm and get it in writing! just kidding, but it needs to be really unambiquous.

dittany · 15/02/2011 22:32

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dittany · 15/02/2011 22:36

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QueenBathsheba · 15/02/2011 22:47

More so than ever women need to have a clear understanding of what constitutes rape.

I concur, because right now so many girls are really messed up wondering if they were drugged, drunk, raped, consented, conscious, unconscious. The evils of alcohol.

Remove the alcohol from the equation and women will be more cognitive.

Sorry, if that offends, it's not meant to but young grils need to know 3 things

What is rape and sexual assault

How to assert themselves and how to behave if there is a risk of violence.

How to keep safe and assess risk.

Once we have that under control, we can get to work on educating men instead of totting up yet more numbers of victims.

HerBeX · 15/02/2011 22:50

I think we need to educate men at the same time as women.

It doesn't matter if women know what rape is, if the policemen, lawyers, judges and courts don't know it.

The women who report rape to the police, know it's rape, that's why they report it. Still most of their cases never make it to court, becasue the mainly men who investigate it and decide if it should go to court, don't know it.

dittany · 15/02/2011 22:52

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QueenBathsheba · 15/02/2011 23:04

Dittany how are you going to stop men raping women?

dittany · 15/02/2011 23:09

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dittany · 15/02/2011 23:10

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QueenBathsheba · 15/02/2011 23:20

Prison alone will not be enough to stop male violence against women.

Prison sentences have not stopped murders being committed almost on a daily basis, yep men murder women too. That poor gril 8m pregnant murdered by some fruit cake.

But you see, rapists are fruit cakes, they are aborations of normal, mad or not they do have choice. But they are a product of dysfunctional homes and parental relationships.

However equally so rapists are ordinary very inexperienced young men with low self esteem who don't understand female behaviour.

All of this comes down to education not prison sentences.

We need to get to a point not where prisons are full to bursting but where women are safe.

QueenBathsheba · 15/02/2011 23:23

Poor gril, ooops I meant girl,

dittany · 15/02/2011 23:31

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Prolesworth · 15/02/2011 23:42

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Pan · 15/02/2011 23:45

I don't think rapists are products of dysfunctional home lifes or messed up parenting. It's messages absorbed generated from wider society that indicates it's 'okay'. That one's urge to subjucate is far more valuable than the other's basic right to be not subjucated.

Prolesworth · 15/02/2011 23:52

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