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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Acquiescence

313 replies

AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 20:49

Not sure whether this counts as a feminist discussion, but I'm giving it a try. I mentioned on another thread that, after seeing last year's TV programme about black-cab rapist John Worboys, I realised he 'had' me, too. I rang the helpline and the police were brilliant - they confirmed my story and discussed the case as much as I wanted to.

Bizarrely, the discovery was actually helpful to me. I'd been struggling with "denial of abuse" issues so, for me, this single episode (which I barely remember) represented all the other half-remembered and anxiously dismissed incidents of abuse that kept me questioning myself. I now accept that I have been more seriously abused, and more often, than I can consciously recognise. This denial is part of the issue I wish to discuss.

John Worboys sexually assaulted upwards of 400 women: probably hundreds more. His method was always the same - a little story, a little drinky that was drugged. Now this is what bothers me: up to 700 of us accepted that drink.

We trust London cabbies, sometimes literally with our lives. Worboys abused that position of trust. But - still! A cab driver gives you a drink, and you don't smell anything fishy? I bet none of us would have smiled and said "cheers" if an illegal minicab driver had done it. Not a single one of us rang the police, or the taxi office, to say "Driver number XXXX has just done something weird."

We trusted hansom cab drivers - rightly so. But why did we allow this trust to override our common sense? We all registered that this was "odd" behaviour, so why didn't we just get the hell out of there and press Dial? What happened to our natural alarm bells?

Answering for myself, I have to assume I was so deeply programmed to TRUST A MAN IN A POSITION OF HONOUR that I had no self-preservation instincts to go with that. In my case, this is the factor that led to my putting up with abuse in many situations. I was also, as mentioned, extremely willing to forget, deny, tell myself I'd got it wrong, etc, etc. I can trace this directly to my parental background. Did all 400 of Worboy's passengers come from families like mine?

How did Worboys know which women to trick?

I asked the cop how come so many women had bought his story. He said he wished he knew that - as more & more evidence came to light, they found it hard to believe he was getting to first base as easily as he did.

As some of you know, I'm committed to helping women in abusive relationships re/gain a sense of their own right to respect and safety. Most of you know at least something about the dynamics of abuse. Many people are conditioned to consider themselves less important than others; it's common for a woman to count herself less than a man. But 400 Londoners, each with enough independence to be getting a cab on her own at night ...? That's a lot!

If self-abandonment and self-denial are THAT prevalent amongst women, then feminism has a far bigger problem than I ever suspected.

I'm not sure if anybody's able or willing to pick this up - it's more of an emotional/psychological angle than this board's usual. It's both personally and politically interesting to me - what do you think?

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 22:26

btw...it cured my dental phobia...always a silver lining

AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 22:26

It does help a lot :)

You and I both had freaky daddies, right? I think I'm scared that we do give off "abuse-appropriate" vibes. And, if we do, that means a hell of a lot of independent, feisty women are going around giving them off.

I think I'm frying my brain.

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AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 22:27

Good for your teeth in the long run, then

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AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 22:29

Did the news accounts make you remember it, AF? Sorry if that's too hard to think about ...

I had no idea why I was so determined to watch the Worboys programme. I usually avoid 'true crime' shows, but I knew exactly when this was on and sat down to watch it.

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AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 22:30

yep, freaky daddy

I don't see a connection, though, truly

wrong place, wrong time, I think (hope)

I don't think I did wrong to put my trust in a professional...same for a taxi driver

there are housands of dentists, thousands of taxi drivers that wouldn't dream of such freakery

AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 22:32

I had already had flashbacks

I knew something happened to me

then the local news reports came

I feel guilt for not coming forward

I think it would have tainted my life though...I know inellectually that isn't true but the feeling remains

AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 22:32

intellectually

AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 22:33

did you remember before the programme grace ?

AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 22:38

You're right. THANKS for that! They're nutters, most people aren't and neither are we - well, not much anyway Wink

No, if you'd had to give evidence it might have hurt you. Your instinct will have told you.

The last time I had IV Valium, it was for a colonoscopy. I suppose some might feel violated by having a camera stuck up their bum, but I lay there giggling! Am very gutted for you, that anaesthetic pleasures have been tainted :(

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hester · 12/02/2011 22:39

AgeingGrace, I think you've raised a really important issue that we don't discuss enough. It is a HUGE issue.

Speaking personally, I'll admit to having had my own issues with fucked boundaries. I think this would have caused me real grief (I mean, even more than it has) if I had been heterosexual. Maybe it's part of the reason why I stopped being heterosexual.

I know I'm not alone in this. So many of my friends - high-achieving, independent, feminist women - have told me things that make that clear. Like the one who had a sexual encounter in which she was anally raped and punched in the face - and tried to recast it as a hot S&M encounter, when she was clearly traumatised by it.

I have to stop now. It's a difficult thing to discuss, isn't it?

AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 22:43

hester, yes, you are right, it is difficult

AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 22:44

grace, you are not a nutter Smile

AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 22:45

I remembered fragments. Nothing about sexual interference, still don't. But the programme put together some moments that I'd not felt sure were real. That's what I said when I rang them up, "I think I might have been." By then I'd managed to put together a sequence of memories prior to passing out, and a few very small bits from after. The police said the little details I told them made it a Worboys event.

Some of my 'after' memories matched their expectations, but others didn't. This means I had at least one other unpleasant encounter with a cab driver. I wouldn't know if he was a 'proper' taxi or a minicab, though, and it's unlikely I ever will.

Do loads of women go through this sort of stuff, I wonder?

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AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 22:47

Just seen your post, hester. It is a difficult thing to discuss! And so - well, vital!

But I'm going to find something brainless to watch on TV now Blush

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AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 22:50

laters, grace x

HerBeX · 12/02/2011 23:29

This is one of the most brilliant pieces I have ever read about women's conditioning to placate men.

AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 23:34

Speechless, just speechless

That piece brings to mind the recent thread about the guy on the school run who "came in for coffee"

Thanks for posting that HB

Every time you pot a link like that, I remember that I should widen my reading

AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 23:35

post

HerBeX · 12/02/2011 23:43

I should have posted it in that thread, shouldn't I?

I just love that article, it says it so clearly.

Must re-visit it every now and then...

AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 23:46

What happened to that thread...is it still in existence ?

Prolesworth · 12/02/2011 23:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

AnyFucker · 12/02/2011 23:49

thanks, proles

I feel like I hijacked

have pm'ed grace but I think she is watching shite telly Smile

AgeingGrace · 12/02/2011 23:57

That was a great & scary thread, AF!
Top link, Bex :)
It reminds me of the very last time I went for a drink with my London girl friends. I'd been in therapee for a while, had gone bust and was quitting.

Some guy decided to chat us up. We let him buy us a drink. Out of courtesy, we included him in our next round. He kept yattering on about himself. We gave him all the usual cues - turned the conversation back to where we were, formed a tighter circle with him on the outside, ignored his increasingly personal remarks.
Next round, he's still there. My dozy mate allows him to buy for us. We politely speak to him. He starts trying to move in on one of us (he doesn't seem bothered which one).
Eventually, I say "Thanks for the drinks, Guy, it's been nice to meet you. Now please go away, we're talking."
Startled silence all round.
I repeat, "Please leave us."
He goes apeshit. He is very offended. I offer to repay the drinks he bought, he's more offended - he looks around for support.

Every guy he looks at does a kind of "Your problem" shrug.
My mates and I take it in turns to say "Goodnight, Guy, Lovely to meet you". We each kiss him on the face.
Ego restored, he leaves.
My friends roll around in admiration - "You're so strong! So assertive! Wow! We thought we'd never get rid of him! I would never have the nerve to do that!"

Do what?? He left after being abandoned by the other men AND kissed by four women who were right out of his league.

I was minded to punch him in the nads.

OP posts:
Prolesworth · 12/02/2011 23:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

AnyFucker · 13/02/2011 00:02

Nothing interesting on telly, grace ? Grin

I like your anecdote. It sounds like something I would do now but maybe not at one time.

Bucking social mores is very hard to do. Sometimes it gains you a kind of shocked admiration, someimes it gets you a reputation as a cocky, frigid mare.