Acquiescence

[AgeingGrace]

Not sure whether this counts as a feminist discussion, but I'm giving it a try. I mentioned on another thread that, after seeing last year's TV programme about black-cab rapist John Worboys, I realised he 'had' me, too. I rang the helpline and the police were brilliant - they confirmed my story and discussed the case as much as I wanted to.

Bizarrely, the discovery was actually helpful to me. I'd been struggling with "denial of abuse" issues so, for me, this single episode (which I barely remember) represented all the other half-remembered and anxiously dismissed incidents of abuse that kept me questioning myself. I now accept that I have been more seriously abused, and more often, than I can consciously recognise. This denial is part of the issue I wish to discuss.

John Worboys sexually assaulted upwards of 400 women: probably hundreds more. His method was always the same - a little story, a little drinky that was drugged. Now this is what bothers me: up to 700 of us accepted that drink.

We trust London cabbies, sometimes literally with our lives. Worboys abused that position of trust. But - still! A cab driver gives you a drink, and you don't smell anything fishy? I bet none of us would have smiled and said "cheers" if an illegal minicab driver had done it. Not a single one of us rang the police, or the taxi office, to say "Driver number XXXX has just done something weird."

We trusted hansom cab drivers - rightly so. But why did we allow this trust to override our common sense? We all registered that this was "odd" behaviour, so why didn't we just get the hell out of there and press Dial? What happened to our natural alarm bells?

Answering for myself, I have to assume I was so deeply programmed to TRUST A MAN IN A POSITION OF HONOUR that I had no self-preservation instincts to go with that. In my case, this is the factor that led to my putting up with abuse in many situations. I was also, as mentioned, extremely willing to forget, deny, tell myself I'd got it wrong, etc, etc. I can trace this directly to my parental background. Did all 400 of Worboy's passengers come from families like mine?

How did Worboys know which women to trick?

I asked the cop how come so many women had bought his story. He said he wished he knew that - as more & more evidence came to light, they found it hard to believe he was getting to first base as easily as he did.

As some of you know, I'm committed to helping women in abusive relationships re/gain a sense of their own right to respect and safety. Most of you know at least something about the dynamics of abuse. Many people are conditioned to consider themselves less important than others; it's common for a woman to count herself less than a man. But 400 Londoners, each with enough independence to be getting a cab on her own at night ...? That's a lot!

If self-abandonment and self-denial are THAT prevalent amongst women, then feminism has a far bigger problem than I ever suspected.

I'm not sure if anybody's able or willing to pick this up - it's more of an emotional/psychological angle than this board's usual. It's both personally and politically interesting to me - what do you think?

As many of you have said, "It's almost rude not to defer and to go by instinct." I feel that's the crux of it, and needs to be addressed. I did refuse JW's drink and he insisted (not going into details). But I didn't get my phone out and alert either the carriage office or the police. Nor did anyone else! This bothers me very much - not in a self-blaming way, but in the way that trust seems to override common sense.

I don't want to get into the "why trust cabbies" debate because many taxi drivers have helped me. Out of the thousands of licensed cabs I took, fewer than five drivers have ever behaved inappropriately. It's reasonable to trust them, imo, but it still wasn't reasonable to accept such an odd request.

There's a danger in basing your life on fear. To a large extent, it's pointless. If your dentist or doctor is going to deliberately mistreat you, there's nothing you can do about it. But I think there are issues of judgement in many cases, and suspect your reference to Milgram is relevant. Mind you, I learned about it in school, too!

Sorry, I know this is a bit rambly. Just thinking on screen.

The reason that you didn't get your phone out and call the police or the carriage office was the same reason that women don't normally report sexual assaults. They think maybe they did something wrong, that they gave the wrong signals, that they won't be believed. That's what needs to change. If a woman is sexually assaulted - in any way - she should be reporting to the authorities without a second thought, and they should take it seriously.

Still finding this black cab stuff odd I have taken 2 black cabs in my life, and stacks of licenced minicabs, and a few unlicenced ones. Never been attacked by any of them. In my brain the likelihood of being attacked by any of these is the same as being attacked by any other bloke. Having said that, I have got out of cabs where I thought the bloke was creepy, or not got in in the first place.

Sorry I'm guessing as to why you didn't report it there!

Society tells us not to report things of a sexual attack nature unless they are super-serious I think.

Not that yours wasn't serious sorry that really did come out wrong.

I have very good instincts always have had. I remember meeting my step Grandfather for the first time when I was four and him asking me whether I wanted to be his big girl or his baby. The alarm bells rang in my head and I said baby.

OP I am definitely programmed to trust no one.

I think when alarm bells ring there is a fear of being wrong, but more a fear of pushing someone over the edge and triggering an attack.

It is very hard to be asscertive with a man when you are alone with him.

I was working late at night and parked my car behind the store I was working in, I always moved it to the front of the store when parking restrictions were lifted at 5.30, I had done this hundreds of times, but on this occassion forgot.

At 11.30 my shift finished and I had to walk down an alley at the side of the store to my car, I am petrified of the dark and I do believe there is a rapist, pedophile around every corner, I have yet to be proved wrong.

When I got to my car there was a young man leaning on the door, I had seen him before he was a customer in the shop, I felt very uneasy with the way he was blocking my car door and the way he looked at me. He asked me for a lift home and I said in my cheery voice "OK". Not because I wanted to, but because it would allow me to get out of a dark alley, somewhere safer.

I chatted about my DH and he said I didn't have one, as I was too young, I was 34. He asked what my DH would think about my picking up strange men and said I must like him as I had offerred him a lift. It seemed like we were playing a game of wits and a battle of words. A conversation went on for a long time as he directed me toward his house or so he said.

I imagined my self in the doc and his defence saing why did you get in the car, why did you drive him home.

As we approached somewhere that lead to a dark lane, I knew the area, I stopped in the middle of a box junction and set off my car alarm, other drivers stopped and shouted at me. People looked out of their windows. He got out of the car and shouted abuse at me and ran away.

I do wonder if there is a rapist around every corner, mathematically what are the chances that the only night I forget to move my car, there is one passing. There have been other incidents, or is there something about me that attracts them, other than I am physically small or have large breasts I don't know what it is.

I did the Milgram thing as an assembly piece - two science teachers, me as the patsy and a friend who was a great actress as the person being electrocuted. No-one (even other teachers) objected during the performance although they all said they believed it was for real. I was feeling smug about how sheepish all my school friends were, but obviously I knew better. But the thing that made it real for me was that during rehearsal my friend was having a hard time acting out the higher shocks, so one of the teachers suggested giving her a small shock so she would get the idea of what it was like. And I didn't object. It was only after my friends parents found out and made a huge fuss that it occurred to me I'd been just as compliant. I hadn't objected at all, even though I'd thought at the time "a real electric shock? That can't be good."

Not that I'm some noble character now. Some people just find me bloody rude, so maybe I've just always lacked social graces. :o

In any case I don't know that I would have refused a drink from a cab driver when I was younger. I turned down free drinks from guys in clubs that I wasn't interested in, but otherwise free drink was free drink. JW's MO worked on many levels.

I have just read through the link from Bex and concluded I am a mean, shrill, stuck up, angry, crazy, dyke bitch.

Just kidding, but if setting boundaries, advocating for myself, no fear of consequences in relation to staying true to my boundaries and beliefs, if meeting physical force with retaliation means I'm crazy, well I must be

I have my mother to thank. Like a lot of girls I uncounsiously modelled my behaviour on hers. Luckily for me my mother was also crazy!

Hopefully we can raise daughters to know that it is acceptable for women to challenge men and set boundaries without fear that they will be percieved as being less female.

Although there remains some men who will attack women regardless which is where education about risk comes in.

I also think women shouldn't deny their instincts, again maybe we do though because we are conditioned to believe our insticts are faulty and we are too emotional.

Blimey annapolly you did well.

Reality that's horrible. And that's exactly the sort of thing that women don't report - gloss over it, laugh it off, think it's "not serious", that sort of thing. Why don't women report these crimes? Why are we socialised to think that men doing outrageous things like this is a part of life and something we just have to put up with?

Bloody hell, Reality
You know, I think I'd have done the same as you at 19.

annapolly, when I read your remark about fearing a rapist around every corner, I thought "How can anyone live like that?" Then I came to where you said: I do wonder if there is a rapist around every corner, mathematically what are the chances that the only night I forget to move my car, there is one passing.
And I can't dispute that. But neither can I imagine living in constant caution.

I have/had serious boundary issues, alongside a highly damn-the-devil approach to risk taking. I've dumbly accepted that lots of things have been done to me because of my own attitudes and behaviour. I should add, I've also enjoyed many amazing adventures in safe company. But maybe the risks really are that prevalent ...

... which, I suppose, comes back again to smashing down the wall of silence and teaching young people how to be sure of their boundaries. AKA stroppy, humourless, frigid bitches

No, Dits, I just needed a quick soundbite whilst in a state of cognitive shock

I agree that self-doubt (paraphrasing you again) appears to be a very strong element in this problem.

That was brusquer and colder than it needed to be, Dittany

Sorry for the unwelcome abbreviation. I think I copied from someone, a while ago. Consider it stopped.

I have the right to misquote you, as you have the right to correct me. Assuming this is a conversation not a lecture.

Grace, I'm proud to be a stroppy humourless and frigid bitch but seriously women are in a no win situation with how society views our behaviour and the victimisation of women.

There seems to be a common assumption that some women are victims and any women who isn't must display less femenine charateristics and bahaviour.

Take out a copyright, Dittany, if it makes you feel better

sheesh

< Leaves the thread for a bit >

Dittany I'm sure all women see these attacks as something that men do to women, not just as individuals but as a class/group.

That doesn't mean that we should not take a short term pragmatic approach to risk and a long term approach to the education of men and try to tackle the reasons why so many women are affraid to follow their instincts and set boundaries, because(not suggesting grace)but many young girls have trouble with this.