Acquiescence

[AgeingGrace]

Not sure whether this counts as a feminist discussion, but I'm giving it a try. I mentioned on another thread that, after seeing last year's TV programme about black-cab rapist John Worboys, I realised he 'had' me, too. I rang the helpline and the police were brilliant - they confirmed my story and discussed the case as much as I wanted to.

Bizarrely, the discovery was actually helpful to me. I'd been struggling with "denial of abuse" issues so, for me, this single episode (which I barely remember) represented all the other half-remembered and anxiously dismissed incidents of abuse that kept me questioning myself. I now accept that I have been more seriously abused, and more often, than I can consciously recognise. This denial is part of the issue I wish to discuss.

John Worboys sexually assaulted upwards of 400 women: probably hundreds more. His method was always the same - a little story, a little drinky that was drugged. Now this is what bothers me: up to 700 of us accepted that drink.

We trust London cabbies, sometimes literally with our lives. Worboys abused that position of trust. But - still! A cab driver gives you a drink, and you don't smell anything fishy? I bet none of us would have smiled and said "cheers" if an illegal minicab driver had done it. Not a single one of us rang the police, or the taxi office, to say "Driver number XXXX has just done something weird."

We trusted hansom cab drivers - rightly so. But why did we allow this trust to override our common sense? We all registered that this was "odd" behaviour, so why didn't we just get the hell out of there and press Dial? What happened to our natural alarm bells?

Answering for myself, I have to assume I was so deeply programmed to TRUST A MAN IN A POSITION OF HONOUR that I had no self-preservation instincts to go with that. In my case, this is the factor that led to my putting up with abuse in many situations. I was also, as mentioned, extremely willing to forget, deny, tell myself I'd got it wrong, etc, etc. I can trace this directly to my parental background. Did all 400 of Worboy's passengers come from families like mine?

How did Worboys know which women to trick?

I asked the cop how come so many women had bought his story. He said he wished he knew that - as more & more evidence came to light, they found it hard to believe he was getting to first base as easily as he did.

As some of you know, I'm committed to helping women in abusive relationships re/gain a sense of their own right to respect and safety. Most of you know at least something about the dynamics of abuse. Many people are conditioned to consider themselves less important than others; it's common for a woman to count herself less than a man. But 400 Londoners, each with enough independence to be getting a cab on her own at night ...? That's a lot!

If self-abandonment and self-denial are THAT prevalent amongst women, then feminism has a far bigger problem than I ever suspected.

I'm not sure if anybody's able or willing to pick this up - it's more of an emotional/psychological angle than this board's usual. It's both personally and politically interesting to me - what do you think?

Watched Shaun Of The Dead (again) All that laughing & screeching did me a world of good!

I can't tell you how much I'm appreciating this thread :) Thank you. I'm finding it hard work, but it's growing me up a bit ...

Sorry I have come back to this very late. The work has to be more about men recognising their responsibility to women and then a woman could be a better judge of who is safe....not making sense, what I mean is if most men, who are decent(ish) treated women with unquestionable respect we would recognise when someone does not, but the gentle erosion of that respect by many (including in law) means that our radar is less acute...

Just to pick up on a point AgeingGrace and AF articulated about whether you gave off any signs. I seriously doubt it. It was just bad luck. I went through my late teens and early twenties on a death wish. The things I'd do, like hitch hike drunk on a regular basis . I have never been raped. Which tells me that that it was because there was never a rapist in the vicinity. I believe you were just at the wrong place at the wrong time

I also think lots of men would accept the drink, offered by either a man or a woman. Drugging of foreigners goes on a lot in Russia for example, where strangers friendly up to them, especially on the trans-siberian, and especially male foreigners. BUt even so, you're probably right that there is some extra biddability about women that stops them from wanting to offend.

Yes. Thanks, AF and Sakura, for what you said about 'attracting' maltreatment. I do believe that happens in interpersonal relationships but it doesn't make sense to apply the same theory to random criminals.

The article HerBeX posted pretty well describes why 400 women accepted a drink in suspicious circumstances.

In that respect, Posie, I think I disagree with you - women are intensely socialised to be compliant and are taught that this will keep us safe (99% of the time). So, essentially, we achieve safety by making ourselves vulnerable to the 1%. More specifically from a gender politics pov, we're taught that we'll stay safe if we pander to the male ego. Surely the implication behind this is that men are dangerous if crossed? Why would we want to teach our daughters that??

I'm thinking of lots of incidents, now, that have happened to young women as a direct result of this mindset. And there's something about denial: I woke up today with the phrase "cognitive dissonance" ringing in my head, but haven't put my finger on what I mean to say [invites comment] ...

There are sweeping repercussions for men, too, but I don't think it's as simple as teaching men to respect women. Men are far more likely to be violently assaulted than women. Young men are at greater risk of murder, of road rage and more likely to be drugged "for a joke".
Are we - generally speaking - much too eager to appease the angry man? If so, what to do?

You know that thing about young men being more likely to be violently assaulted than women?

Could some of the causes of that be because a) They are out and about more (on the street for example) while women get cabs and b) they aren't taught to placate other men who might be violent as we are, they aren't always as finely attuned to the body language and the nuances of the man who is going to attack them, so they fail to use the strategies women often do, to ensure that they aren't seen as targets?

Just musing really

I think this all ties in with the Milgram experiment and the way we as humans seem to be programmed to do what those we trust ask when it fits in context. With the way society places women below men in the pecking order it leaves women particularly vulnerable to sexual assault (as the Fugitivus post makes quite explicit).

I've often wondered if the reason I've never had a problem telling a guy that I'm not interested, is partly because we studied the Milgram experiment in school. It completely changed the way I approached situations in school and in friendships where I would otherwise have acquiesced.

Can you tell us more about the Milgram experiment SP, or link to something about it? Have never heard of it.

Oh that one.

Oh yes I had heard of that, just didn't know it was called that.

It's an interesting thing.

Reading this I was thinking the same as Sakura - chances are that worboys offered lots of women drinks - I doubt he singled ones out based on some kind of signal they were giving off. He had no need to - anyone who accepted the drink would conk out.

I also agree that many men would accept a free drink from a stranger as well. The line there as to whether someone accepts it is probably to do with personality and situation as much as anything else. Unless it is the case that JW wheedled to get people to take the drink - in which case he will have been playing on the idea that many people have raised, that women are conditioned to go along with what others want even if it goes against their instincts. Certainly women and girls need to be taught to follow their instincts even if it does mean that they will be perceived as rude - of course there is also the problem that when some men are rejected they becaome aggressive or violent but I don't know where to go with that. Certianly I always told men in teh pub to go away if I didn't want to talk to them - I was always surprised by how my friends would rarely do that - and teh reactions of the men were often unpleasant. Or they just completely ignore you

Anyway this is a bit of a stream of consciousness.

Grace it sounds as if you reported warboys after the police knew what was happening - you understand that the response you got from them was how they were acting once they figured out this awful thing was happening and they had royally cocked up. Many of the women who went to Sapphire before they had put 2+2 together were treated abysmally.

And for everyone - why this trust for black cab drivers? I have never felt a large amount of trust for black cab drivers - neither have I felt a large amount of distrust for illegal cab drivers. I don't really get that. Why did people think a black cab driver wouldn't do something like that? It's not like they're policemen or something - and TBH even policemen do stuff like this sometimes. Why all that trust? It seems a bit bizarre to me.

SQ - because the process for getting a badge is really stringent. And because black cab drivers are vulnerable to being complained about if they step out of line, so if too many people complain about them they can lose their bade (they're regulated by the carriage office).

But also police officers, I'd trust a policeman probably - you expect them to be disproportionately more law abiding than the average person I guess.

sorry that should say lose their badge don't knwo where the g went

They need to do the knowledge is all I know. What else is it?

Here they have to have an enhanced CRB check and that's it.

Big wows

I get trusting a policeman. I don't get trusting a cabbie, at all!

I mean trusting then more than anyone else IYSWIM.

good point by SardineQueen. I have never thought about that before. Why the trust? I think to some extent it is trusting in authority. Just like trusting the scientist in the Milgram experiment, deferring to those in authority. Without this type of trust and deferral, faith in the system would be lost. It's almost rude not to defer and to go by instinct. Sometimes the faith in authority may not be justified, the expense scandal being one example.

People trusted Harold Shipman.

Not just CRB checks, also if you complain about them they are hauled up before the carriage licence authority and if a number of complaints are received, then they can be investigated and lose their badge. I think it's just more stringent than any other type of job - plumber, builder, miklman etc. Plus of course, the black taxi drivers association has assiduously marketed its profession as more than ordinarily trustworthy. The way they've done this, is largely to play on the horror stories about unlicensed cabs.

Yes and look at that MSbP bloke, whose name escapes me, being accepted as a court expert on a disease he'd invented.

Yes I trust doctors. More than policemen TBH. I'm sure we all have internal trust lists!

TBH black cab drivers don't figure on mine at all. Interesting.

Yes that was also shocking.

Vets yes dentists no.

People who work in supermarkets yes bus drivers no

Freaky.

I don't think the general trust in black cab drivers is particularly misplaced. Becoming a black cab driver is fairly difficult (doing The Knowledge not passing a CRB) so if someone wanted to drive around picking up women to abuse it would be much easier to do it as a minicab driver - or just as a guy in a car who pretends to be a minicab driver. Black cabs also have various requirements and procedures in place which would make it easier for the driver to get caught than illegal cabs do. So the opportunity isn't as great.

I don't mean that being a black cab driver is a great test of character, that black cab drivers are less likely than other people to be rapists. But rather, if someone wanted to pray on people getting lifts late at night illegal mini-cabbing is a much easier route so most people who do it are likely to go that way.