Men discriminated against from cradle to grave according to Dominic Raab MP

[JustineMumsnet]

Writing in an article on Politics Home, Dominic Raab MP for Esher and Walton has written:

"It is almost taboo for a man to question the assertion that the rapidly dwindling pay gap is the result of discrimination, rather than genuine choice. The debate has been consumed by the prejudice it seeks to purge."

"While we have some of the toughest anti-discrimination laws in the world, we are blind to some of the most flagrant discrimination ? against men. From the cradle to the grave, men are getting a raw deal. Men work longer hours, die earlier, but retire later than women. "

Then there is the more subtle sexism. Men caused the banking crisis. Men earn more because they are more assertive in pay negotiations. One FT commentator recently complained that: ?High-flying women are programmed to go for high-flying men. Most men aren?t attracted to women who are more successful than they are.? Can you imagine the outrage if such trite generalisations were made about women, or other minorities? Feminists are now amongst the most obnoxious bigots."

"You can?t have it both ways. Either you believe in equality or you don?t. If you buy into the whole Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus theory of gender difference ? with all its pseudo science - you can?t then complain about inequalities of outcome that flow both ways from those essentially sexist distinctions."

What do you think MNetters?

well, to be fair, it's hardly a secret stash!

Or one at a time. Sadly.

PMSL

"I took too long to get back"...because you were peeling yourself off the ceiling and unclenching your fists?

Four myths about feminism ? and one thing Dominic Raab is right about. Article here

Good article thanks for the link

Not going to read the comments

Do you think she has a point?

'One truth: we need to end the gender war'

I do agree with her:

' it is the rich who are making gains at the expense of the poor.'

Quotes from Laurie Penny's article in the Guardian:

"One truth: we need to end the gender war"

"it is the rich who are making gains at the expense of the poor."

Wealth and poverty are gender issues. Most of the richest people are male and most of the poorest people are female.

class,health inequalities,parenting stereotypes that women are better with babies and children,decline of traditional industries do disadvantage some men- not all men

lazy oft touted stereotypes and clichés like it's a mans world are not applicable to all men

certainly there needs to be a recognition that structural,educational and social factors disadvantage men too. not just women

dont agree with all the sentiments he expresses but certainly worth discussing

scottishmummy wrote - "decline of traditional industries do disadvantage some men- not all men"

Men have been negatively impacted by this, but I think it is important to state that feminists did not close the coal mines, shipyards and car factories etc.

They don't disadvantage men as a class SM.

They disadvantage some men in some circumstances, but those disadvantages are not because of their gender as the disadvantage extends to women in their peer group as well.

i do think people can read 1 post below,why on earth C&P such close proximity.and i didnt say that feminists closed male dominated industries did i

Decline of traditional industries disadvantaged women just as much - the rag trade, factories etc. closing put working class women out of work at the same time as the ship yards closing put their husbands and brothers out of work.

The disadvantage was class-based, not gender-based.

gender based if majority laid off in were males,as in some industries.certainly a hardship is borne by a family but certain male industries in decline laid off majority men. as they employed majority men

this isnt a competition to see who is most hard done to. deprivation,inequality are hard felt upon individuals

i didnt say men are a class.i discussed impacting factors of socioeconomic disadvantage

No it's not a competition, but DR is trying to pretend that men are oppressed as a class in the same way women are.

Which is patently idiotic.

And he's not interested in socio-economically disadvantaged men sm, he's a tory.

He's using anti-feminist sentiment in order to attack women. Of all classes. He's not interested in social justice and fairness for disadvantaged men.

Don't you think saying men as a group are richer than women as a group disenfranchises a proportion of men from these discussions?

If you've lost your job, struggling to get another one, bills are mounting and you hear as a group you're privileged, it must make it hard to relate to these discussions.

I think DR is at the top of a multi-layered pyramid and doesn't and can't speak for me or my life.

I think it probably does Truckulent, but that's generally because of lack of familiarity with political terms like class and privileged.

We can't always pitch discussions to the level of people who don't have political literacy. Nothing would ever get discussed.

When I hear about racism, I never have the urge to talk about the plight of white people. No when I hear about homophobia to I feel the need to raise the problems a heterosexual faces. So no.

On average men earn twice the amount that women do in my profession, after twenty years.

Of course this might be because men are more talented and have more drive

Or it might not.

It's all a question of perspective.

The thing that is scary about Dominic Raab, is not so much that he is a dinosaur, but that he's an elected dinosaur. So there are people out there who think like him, read the Mail and fulminate against feminists on a daily basis. I suppose it is Esher though, which mostly accounts for things.

I just think feminism will have more chance of success with more men on board.

I'm the only man I know that knows anything about feminism and I'm not exactly Charlotte Perkins Gilman.

Men must be on board if feminism is to succeed.

But you can't get people on board if you don't define what the problem is.

Women tried to get men on board by going along with the idea that because a couple of women now worked in the city and lots of us work now and there's been a woman PM and some men now wash up a couple of times a week, we're all equal now and the struggle for equality can end. And that has got us nowhere.

It is a very difficult line to tread. Not sure what the balance is.

I don't get this idea that feminism needs to do XYZ in order to ingratiate itself with people, or in order to get men on board or whatever

On MN I often hear "you do feminism cause no favours by saying that" "that attitudes not going to make people sympathetic to your cause"

Imagine a white person saying to a black person "well, fighting racism is none of my business so if you don't me me half-way I'm not going to be sympathetic to your cause "

FFS! Either you see the hideous inequalities between men and women, and believe it's wrong from a moral and humanitarian POV for one class or group to dominate another, or you don't.
End of.

IT's not up to feminist women to get people on board by being polite and ingratiating and deferential. They can educate others, yes, but only if those people are willing to be educated.

I agree Sakura.

As you say, can you imagine the white people who joined the movement to end white supremacy coming out with such crap?

White guys: "Alright, well we'll join in but only if you pretend that we aren't very privileged, and you mention that white people have problems too from time to time, and you do a campaign on the issue that some white people are worse off than some black people, (even though it doesn't have anything to do with their race, it is to do with their class, and thereby just confuses everybody and makes the movement's message incomprehensible)."

Black guys : "Um, no thanks, I think we'll get on a lot better without that sort of hijacking help".

I know it's a word I'm using a lot at the moment, but the entitlement is being fed by the backlash isn't it?

It is just growing and growing. I think male sense of entitlement is one of the biggest obstacles to feminism at the moment.

Plus the notion that has been brought up here, where there is this accusation that men suffer from gender based oppression when they patently don't. They may sometimes suffer from gender based prejudice, but oppression it 'ain't.

Julie Birchill some feminist needs to write an article explaining the political concepts that are the foundations of supremacy/oppression to the population.

I do think we need men on board, but they must climb aboard because they understand the politics, and wish to end the inequality of a supremacist regime, pure and simple. If they are only doing it because they have been told that they will get something out of it too then we are just going round in circles in the land of patriarchy. Waste of feminist time.

There is a need for a movement that campaigns for equality for all regardless of age, class, gender, etc. I just don't think it is feminism's job to be this movement.