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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Men discriminated against from cradle to grave according to Dominic Raab MP

447 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/01/2011 11:19

Writing in an article on Politics Home, Dominic Raab MP for Esher and Walton has written:

"It is almost taboo for a man to question the assertion that the rapidly dwindling pay gap is the result of discrimination, rather than genuine choice. The debate has been consumed by the prejudice it seeks to purge."

"While we have some of the toughest anti-discrimination laws in the world, we are blind to some of the most flagrant discrimination ? against men. From the cradle to the grave, men are getting a raw deal. Men work longer hours, die earlier, but retire later than women. "

Then there is the more subtle sexism. Men caused the banking crisis. Men earn more because they are more assertive in pay negotiations. One FT commentator recently complained that: ?High-flying women are programmed to go for high-flying men. Most men aren?t attracted to women who are more successful than they are.? Can you imagine the outrage if such trite generalisations were made about women, or other minorities? Feminists are now amongst the most obnoxious bigots."

"You can?t have it both ways. Either you believe in equality or you don?t. If you buy into the whole Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus theory of gender difference ? with all its pseudo science - you can?t then complain about inequalities of outcome that flow both ways from those essentially sexist distinctions."

What do you think MNetters?

OP posts:
sethstarkaddersmackerel · 24/01/2011 14:12
dittany · 24/01/2011 14:14

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

everythingchangeseverything · 24/01/2011 14:18

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/01/2011 14:23

I have that cartoon in my favourites folder for when I'm just not quite angry enough. :o

Sorry I know it's very long, and he's probably not worth bothering with in the first place. But sometimes the bullshit is so thickly spread that you need to take it one layer at a time.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/01/2011 14:24

Am still guffawing at "women are programmed to..." - anyone else feel the need for a java update? Or perhaps to defrag their system ?

melezka · 24/01/2011 14:29

If I felt favourably disposed towards him I might make him a GURLS R YUCK tshirt to wear in parliament. And one for each of his little mates.

ThePosieParker · 24/01/2011 14:33

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AND
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about an hour ago · Like
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Sorry I just had to post and run, I 'like' Hooters just to grab the dirt!! Soon you can expect a whole range of their 'family' shots!!

HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 24/01/2011 14:40

Elephants - brilliant response! Said everything I wanted to and more! Jackie Fleming is a bit of a star!

I would also say that he offered no facts or evidence to substantiate this bullshit (other than a dodgy reference to the pay-gap "dwindling").

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/01/2011 14:45

Yes, I'm sure we've all got our black suits ready for the day the pay gap finally dies. It'll be a terribly sad occasion.

BelleDameSansMerci · 24/01/2011 14:54

E&M - I've always loved you but now I adore you. Would you mind, terribly, emailing it to him (or may I)?

Beachcomber · 24/01/2011 14:57

I totally agree with ElephantsAndMiasmas's excellent post of Mon 24-Jan-11 14:04:30.

Dominic Raab is parroting exactly the sort of nonsense that MRAs come out with.

His words reek of male entitlement and obliviousness - feminist terms he should look up in order to have a basic clue about the subject.

My overwhelming repose to this is that this, no doubt very educated man, doesn't know what feminism is - shame it didn't stop him having a pop at it.

Oh and the irony of the juxtaposition of these two sentiments;

"Can you imagine the outrage if such trite generalisations were made about women, or other minorities? Feminists are now amongst the most obnoxious bigots."

Ahem.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/01/2011 14:58

If anyone does c&p, please correct my totally idiotic typo - I do know how to spell understandable, really. And House of Commons should be capitalised. I have a carefree attitude to this sort of thing as you can tell but nincompoops frequently like to nitpick.

Justine - are you going to do anything with our responses, or just put them on his desk in an unmarked enveloped with a big post-it saying "HA!"?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/01/2011 15:00
ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/01/2011 15:03

I imagined he would be about 90 - he's only 36

And there was I looking forward to this sort of thing dying of gout out in a decade or two.

Truckulente · 24/01/2011 15:06

I thought the pay gap was closing?
In the 22-29 age group women earn more than men.

So it is improving isn't it?

belledechocchipcookie · 24/01/2011 15:10

It concerns me that there's an arsehole gentleman with these opinions as an MP!!

SlightlyTubbyHali · 24/01/2011 15:17

As the government led by his party has just tabled the provisions accelerating equalisation of retirement ages between the sexes his assertion that "men retire later" will of less and less relevance.

As to the assertion that "men work longer hours" than women, I suspect that many of the female partners at Linklaters, his old employer, would strongly disagree.

Gender difference is not a justification for inequality. The fact that women can give birth while men cannot does not impact on a woman's ability to do a job. Or is Mr Raab asserting that is does? I do wonder what Samantha Cameron thinks of his views.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/01/2011 15:24

Figures show the pay gap narrowed last year. It doesn't indicate a trend though, unless it continues. IIRC it hasn't narrowed significantly over the past few millennia years.

BeenBeta · 24/01/2011 16:00

There are some areas were men are discriminated against - parental leave, the fact that men are more likley to be in low wage dangerous dirty jobs, less mental healthcare provision in the NHS, later retirement age.

However, that does not negate the fact that women are routinley discriminated against in terms of pay and promotion as well as selection for redundancy.

BeenBeta · 24/01/2011 16:02

By the way, men did cause the banking crisis. Look how many women are on bank boards of directors. Virtually none.

Lio · 24/01/2011 16:02

Thank you Elephants, I second your fantastic post.

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 24/01/2011 16:02

once again, I am feeling sorry for Theresa May.

TheCrackFox · 24/01/2011 16:16

Men die younger because they smoke and drink more. There has been so much public education over this matter (for bloody decades) and I would like to know why men seem unable to take on board health messages.

A lot of women were forced to retire at 60 and would have preferred to work until they were 65. Poverty ain't much fun. Besides which the retirement age, for women, is rising in increments and is currently 61. I will be retiring at the same age as my DH so it is a redundant argument.

He needs to explain why it is a bad thing that womens pay is catching up with the men.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 24/01/2011 16:18

Thanks Lio, Belle and everyone for being nice. Can anyone remember the name of the study that found evidence that women who negotiate for higher pay are looked on negatively? Think it was quoted in the Equality Illusion.

mamarara · 24/01/2011 17:28

What E&M said!

Also - whilst we live in a patriarchy it is nigh on impossible for women and men to be truly equal. Men are born with innate privileges that means they will always dominate. Unfortunately, as a holder of these privileges, he sees his position as the default; ignorance is bliss.

Regarding feminism, he is over simplifying the inequality of women as a financial/career oriented argument. A larger issue exists relating to the sexual dominance of women by men. The rape statistics - lack of conviction or indeed report of incidence - highlight this fact. Women are sexually dominated by men, until this is resolved women will never be equal.

Radio4 - the MP is on before 6 to make a statement...