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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Men discriminated against from cradle to grave according to Dominic Raab MP

447 replies

JustineMumsnet · 24/01/2011 11:19

Writing in an article on Politics Home, Dominic Raab MP for Esher and Walton has written:

"It is almost taboo for a man to question the assertion that the rapidly dwindling pay gap is the result of discrimination, rather than genuine choice. The debate has been consumed by the prejudice it seeks to purge."

"While we have some of the toughest anti-discrimination laws in the world, we are blind to some of the most flagrant discrimination ? against men. From the cradle to the grave, men are getting a raw deal. Men work longer hours, die earlier, but retire later than women. "

Then there is the more subtle sexism. Men caused the banking crisis. Men earn more because they are more assertive in pay negotiations. One FT commentator recently complained that: ?High-flying women are programmed to go for high-flying men. Most men aren?t attracted to women who are more successful than they are.? Can you imagine the outrage if such trite generalisations were made about women, or other minorities? Feminists are now amongst the most obnoxious bigots."

"You can?t have it both ways. Either you believe in equality or you don?t. If you buy into the whole Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus theory of gender difference ? with all its pseudo science - you can?t then complain about inequalities of outcome that flow both ways from those essentially sexist distinctions."

What do you think MNetters?

OP posts:
edam · 29/01/2011 12:14

Ooh, hadn't noticed that aspect, Elephants.

I'm just impressed that TM even refers to feminism and maternity leave in positive terms. I know she's minister for equalities and all, but still...

HerBeX · 29/01/2011 15:00

I am so gutted that I am thinking ofa tory mininster with approval.

Grin
sethstarkaddersmackerel · 29/01/2011 16:15

honestly, you lot!
Theresa May has never made a secret of her feminism. She is perhaps even braver in this than the feminists in the Labour party because quite a lot of leftwing men at least pretend to like feminism whereas traditional Tories are more openly anti.
she doesn't have a great record on gay equality issues but her feminism has always been clear.

HerBeX · 29/01/2011 16:22

You've obviously followed her more closely than we have seth. Grin

Really has she always been feminist? That's actually cheered me up quite a bit.

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 29/01/2011 16:37

she was named by the Fawcett Society as one of the most inspiring women of 2006.

I think this was quite brave too actually, even if ultimately ineffective.

She is stuck in the middle - she gets an enormous amount of stick from leftwing feminists for supporting various Tory policies as well as getting flak from the men in her party. I spend a lot of time feeling quite sorry for her actually Grin

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 29/01/2011 16:39

oh and the shoe thing is bloody ridiculous: she's always being talked about in the media as if SHE's obsessed by shoes when in fact they're the ones that go on and on about it, she just wears the things.
quite a good example of how a woman in public life can't win when it comes to clothes - dress boringly and you will be accused of being a frump and worse, dress well and you get accused of being fashion-obsessed.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 29/01/2011 18:22

Someone's got a crush, ssm :o

I didn't even know Fawcett did a feminist hot list. Agree that the shoe thing is ridiculous and misogynist. She buys shoes! Therefore she is a typical ladeeee! and we all know typical ladeeees are a bit thick! therefore she is a bit thick! But she calls herself a minister lolol etc.

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 29/01/2011 18:32

I love the way she does her hair too....

singlemumsaresuper · 30/01/2011 16:28

The speech is highly confused Confusedand sadly reflective of die-hard public house conversations that I remember from the time before my partner and I agreed on having children.

Is he claiming that the FT has a feminist columnist? Is he calling for a witch hunt against feminist columnists? Will one ever really join the ranks of the great unnamed bigots? No, I don't wish to wait for his next episode to find out.

I am very interested in knowing what the Government's reaction to this rant is going to be. Is it going to object to these comments at all? Or does this reflect a deeper and systemic denial of gender based discrimination and gender based persecution in UK society?

It really is most worrying that this Tory MP appears so unaware of the androcentric nature of his profession and much of our society.

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 30/01/2011 17:05

look here, Raab has previous on sexist bullying.

no surprise....

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 31/01/2011 00:57

very interesting ssm

by the way, as a special treat here is the link to Theresa May at Women & Equalities questions last week, starts at about 45 minutes in. Not sure where the Raab reproach is.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 31/01/2011 01:13

56:50ish for D Raab being a twazzock, around 57:35 for Theresa May smacking him down (metaphorically) to cheers and shouts of "well said" and even "hooray" :o

JohnathonRocks · 12/02/2011 15:40

I note that some of you seem concerned that a man (gasp) speaks up against feminist values (of blaming men for everything) and some have even denied that many feminists have blamed men for the banking crisis and such like.

So let me ask you, when Harriet Harman continually bashed on men during her reign as 'equality' (LMFAO) minister, did any single one of you take issue with her for her constant assaults at men?

Even in her book she claimed fathers are of no value at all - Did any one of you take issue with that?

No?

Oh... so it's only bad when a man speaks against an ideology (i.e. not 'women') of blaming and hating on men... but when that ideology of hating & blaming men (i.e. half the planet's population) is running rampant, you're all blind to it - Amazing!

sethstarkaddersmackerel · 12/02/2011 15:49

oh another ignorant MRA come to talk shit about feminism. Yawn. Go and read a few basic books about what feminism actually is and come back when you've got something intelligent to say.

vesuvia · 12/02/2011 15:50

JohnathonRocks - "Even in her book she claimed fathers are of no value at all"

Can you provide a quote and page number where Harriet Harman wrote what you claim?

HerBeX · 12/02/2011 18:29

JonathanRocks you very obviously have no idea what feminist values are. Go and do a bit of basic reading as Seth advises, this is the mumsnet feminist section, we expect a bit more intellectual rigour please, we don't want to engage with stupidity as we do enough of that in RL. We come here as an oasis of interesting, intelligent debate, if we wanted to have the kind of basic stupid debate you're after, we'd be on CiF or Daily Mail.

HTH.

HerBeX · 12/02/2011 18:29

Oh and you patently don't rock

Rhadegunde · 12/02/2011 18:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HerBeX · 12/02/2011 18:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Rhadegunde · 12/02/2011 20:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 12/02/2011 22:25

Oh my god, like, some women, somewhere are being mean! And all the other women aren't running round to beat up the naughty mean women! Some are even agreeing! That is like, SO not ok.

JohnathonRocks · 13/02/2011 11:55

So the only retorts are to insult, mock, name-call and divert attention away.

For the record, I judge feminism by it's ACTIONS not it's claims.

Actions always speak louder than words.

vesuvia · 13/02/2011 11:59

JohnathonRocks wrote - "So the only retorts are to insult, mock, name-call and divert attention away."

That is not true. You seem to just be seeing and reacting to what you want to see, to fit your own agenda, which is hostile to feminism.

Try answering the question I asked you.

JohnathonRocks · 13/02/2011 12:05

"It cannot therefore be assumed that men are bound to be an asset to family life, or that the presence of fathers in families is necessarily a means to social harmony and cohesion."The Family Way: Harman, H., Institute of Public Policy Research, 1990.

JohnathonRocks · 13/02/2011 12:07

Vesuvia, Feminism is hostile to men. It defends women who abuse men & children, it promotes superior rights for women at the cost of men & children, it has gone out of it's way to marginalize and mock male abuse victims, etc. etc.

Why should anyone support such a hateful & bigoted movement?