So is Christmas women's work then?

[Katisha]

Following on from my thread here in which in would appear that left to their own deives most, (not all), men would hardly bother with Christmas at all, I would be interested to know why this is.

Is it because women do it all for them? Is it because only women want all the traditional food, decorations, visiting, card sending and frenzy of present buying?

Are women propping up some ridiculous commercial christmas industry and men are right to despise/ignore it?

Or what?

Well I had a brilliant Christmas my dad did all of it and doesnt allow any of us in the kitchen not even to get drink.

He likes to bring it out and do it all. My mums role was to have too much champagne and dance around the lounge, and try and embarass me in front of my husband lol.

Zhen - I agree with that situation where it is rude for no-one to get up and help. But better is for your partner to get up and help thus subverting rather than perpetuating the gender divide. Not always easy I know, but my partner and I take it in turns to be the one to help in those situations.

And re the discussion way back or why do women do it if they don't want to, because they'll be the ones in the ones criticised if they don't. There was something posted on here a while ago about how the man can leave the cleaning until the woman gives in because it will be her that is judged by others for it, not he. If presents don't get bought or cards don't get sent, where will the blame be placed? I've never engaged with the idea that partner's stuff would be my responsibility so just act dumb at the idea that lack of anything could be a reflection on me. But once a precedent has been set that the woman remembers birthdays, sends cards, buys presents etc who will be judged if it doesn't happen?

It would be great to live in a world where we could just do what we like, regardless of gender, and face no consequences, but we don't. It takes guts to continually subvert gender norms and get judged for it. I quite like it as I like to be contrary. But I judge the situation that leads a woman to feel she need to do everything more than I judge the woman.

Zhen, I can understand why you feel you need to get up and help, and it's the right thing to do in those circumstances. But presumably your husband/partner is sitting right there with you, and equally capable of seeing that his mother is doing all the work and getting exhausted, so why doesn't he feel the same obligation to get up and offer to help her?

I understand that you're the one who'd be judged for being lazy and rude if you don't help, whereas it's probably seen as perfectly normal for him not to, so I know it's not equal or fair at all. But he should understand this and at least some of the time offer to help, before it gets to the stage of you being put in that position. Unless he's happy to just sit back and have you and his mum wait on him?

AliceWorld, for me the really worrying thing is that in the majority of cases, the judging is done by women of other women.
Women can be some of the most spiteful and nit-picking of critics to people of their own gender that they should be supporting in a general movement towards equality of roles and expectations.

zhen, I think that's a fundamental issue - women feel a social pressure to do Christmas work, and that pressure just isn't really put on men.

A few days ago I saw and avoided this thread as I had gastric flu and was feeling very sad that Christmas really wasn't happening as I was too ill to go out and DH was working (and I had a pretty dim view of what he was likely to do). To be fair, he didn't find a Christmas tree but other than that he did a good job and cooked all through Christmas, bought presents for my family, etc.

What I find a bit odd is that, although he was fine doing this, he really wouldn't have done it unless I'd been completely out of action. He doesn't know why either.

Is anyone else's DP/DH similar? Ie., capable of doing the white knight act in emergency, but unlikely to bother if it's just everyday?

I also notice (grrr!) that several of DH's mates sent Christmas cards to him and me, he didn't have time to reply (they arrived on the 24th, so he should have anticipated) ... and I've got several notes on facebook asking if we received the cards.

Interesting.

I've also seen more judging of women's house-keeping skills and christmas preparation by other women than by men. As a sweeping generalisation anyway and I know there are a lot of exceptions.

It's really sad.

no.some women feel a social pressure at xmas. i dont feel such pressure to be judged on food,social organisational blah blah.so this stuff needs to have significance and meaning to the women to have then scurrying about

i love xmas, but no i dont do my tin in.we prepare in advance and we share tasks

I think it is hard to sit there and watch your mother, sister and aunt all bustling round working while the men sit there on their arses drinking beer.

It is fucking rude not to offer to help. But if you do, you're re-inforcing gender roles. I don't have a partner, so that's not an issue for me. And of course, it's not my place to tell other people (the menz) that they should be offering to help. So what to do? Anyone ever solved this problem?

I do christmas because my kids love it and look forward to having relatives come over. But as soon as they are teenagers going through the goth "why can't we just have curry for christmas dinner" phase, I will stop doing it. Unless of course, they peel the spuds.

my mum,aunties wont have man helping they do likey the mrs doyle martyr role peelin 20kg tatties and 7pints gravy at it aw day.funnily enough i dont

if anyone is sat on arse and wont help if help would be accepted they are lazy toerag. but if women are immersed in the its women work role then they have to accept some responsibility for it being deemed so

Dh doesn't do this in our house, I wouldn't allow it. I think he would definitely take it easier if I was more "there there, I'll do it, you have a rest", but social conditioning makes this rebuttal of martyrdom less natural than it should feel. I am working hard on it though .

However, this is his parents' house, and these are the rules they live by. I find it so bizarre - but there comes a stage when you think "well, this is what MIL and FIL have established as their family set-up, and if they're happy with it, why should I make a fuss about it?" I couldn't let the criticism of SIL pass though.

Totally different situation in my own family where my Dad rules the kitchen and pulls his weight with the housework. My Mum is the boss - she is the better cook and tells him this often but would prefer him to do the actual work and call her when dinner's ready. Mum is still working whilst Dad is retired.

Women judging other women at their Christmas performance - of course. Because if women's role is to do this sort of thing, then women measure how they are doing at their allotted role by looking at the performance of others. It's not considered 'nitpicking' if men are competitive in their paid work, because that's men's allotted role and of course public life is so much more important than domestic life . In the same way, women are supposed to be sexually continent, so tbh I have probably heard far more derogatory comments about other women's sexual lives by women rather than men - we do it for them. Competition among the oppressed.

I do do pretty much all of Christmas. dh bought a present for me, with much anxious consultation, an additional present for ds, and wrote 3 cards. He does hate Christmas and that helps in a way, also he does most birthday cards through the year. The poster above whose partner loves the activities of Christmas but who doesn't do any of the work - that would really infuriate me.

do you "do pretty much all of Christmas" by choice?

What's choice scottishmummy?

There are all sorts of things going on in my head that mean I end up doing it (and I hope my post wasn't moaning about it). I want ds to have the kind of Christmas I remember enjoying. I don't want to have benefited from lots of hospitality in the past from my parents and ILs and other family, and not to do my part now that the time has come. Dh is not going to do it (and would not judge me if I didn't). DS is 6 years old. Therefore I do it.

choice is purposeful act of willingly undertaking a task.you knowing your dh wont do it and say you do it.fair enough if you want to.its only problemo if you dont want to

but if it is undertaken as (female)expectation,then for some it is problemo

Just wanted to add that this set-up is typical of any visit to my in-laws, not just at Christmas.

The men don't do nothing around the house (well, apart from BIL, but that's a whole different rant), but the roles seem quite gender divided.

At Christmas in our house, I'm in charge of food, as is typical anyway. I only write cards and buy presents for my side, and if no one sends cards to his side, I don't think it would be me being judged... I hope! Dh does the tree and decorations, drinks, place settings, sorts out laundry and bedlinen if we have guests. I like to think it's a fairly equal effort, which is why I can't help being when I see how differently he behaves around his Mum.

To be fair, on normal visits up though, he will make teas and lunches, help with clearing the table, loading the dishwasher. I have said to him "look, let's sort the washing up and tidy the kitchen for your parents, they'll really appreciate it" and he's been perfectly accommodating, even if he wouldn't normally think of doing these things himself. Do not think it's my job however, to enforce this on BIL or SIL's husband.

My interest is in WHY the DH won't do it? Because it's your job? Or if he hates Christmas, why?

but i want to, partly, because i feel more successfully female when i do 'better' at it - i've internalised those role expectations.

which is shit!

but it's also a nice feeling!

arrrgh

if feel comfortable with role demarcation,fair enough, it's the no choice and uncomfortable that is issue

sending cards; dh thinks it is false and meaningless, and also that noone likes him enough to send a card (they do though, which surprises him EVERY year)

sending presents; dh thinks it is false and meaningless, also stressful, there is nothing about shopping he likes, he hates spending money, crowds and the pressure of expectations

family visits; dh dislikes the experience of seeing any member of his family, although also believes he should see them regularly

basically IMO dh values what he sees as 'pure' interaction that happens from unmixed motives, and feels that any interaction that is prescribed by ritual is ipso facto devalued. i don't agree - i quite value ritual and the rhythm of festivals etc

hidey,why "Dh is not going to do it"
because you do it?
because he can get away with it?
familial roles and expectations?

Interesting hidey.

So how does he feel about you effectively making it all happen then?

dh has depression, anxiety, psychosis and a bad back; he genuinely has to limit what he does. he COULD do it, but tbh i wouldn't like to have to deal with the fallout. if i like it, i do it. i sometimes think that i should just not do it - it would be less stressful for him. But i would find that a bit depressing, and it would seem hard on ds not to participate in his own culture.

sorry lots of xposts.

tbh katisha if i'm honest, me rushing about being domestically efficient probably makes him more depressed than he otherwise would be. christmas as we do it is probably actively damaging to him.

in which case knowing your circs you adjust accordingly

Goblinchild there's a lot of interesting research been done on the way that underlings nit-pick at each other: sort of like hens pecking at each other for the scraps the cockerels have deigned to throw at them/
WOmen trashing other women is a big problem, and comes directly from their subordinate status. As underlings the power women have is so sparse, that they compete with each other for the scraps. This dynamic not only happens in families, but in the public sphere as well
Definitely a problem