The demonisation of single mothers.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

Hi,

I've ended up talking about this in various threads but have never dedicated a thread to it.

So, i'm looking for your thoughts. How do we see this in action? What are the views of single mothers? How are they propagated? Why are they propagated and why do they attract such demonisation?

I'd also like to hear about where you think the feminist vision saw single mothers, did it predict their would be more given the increased freedom women would have in their lives and their ability to leave male partners or choose to not have one without being financially or socially (though that hasn't held true entirely compared to 1960's it's at least possible to live this way) ruined?

Is women being able to have children alone a part of the feminist outcome - if women have more control over their bodies and reproduction surely it was an inevitable outcome? And is it in your mind a positive or negative thing in terms of feminism?

I'm actually going away for a few days now but hope this will attract lots of thoughts for me to read when i get back.

As for me, to put this in context, i am a single mother of a pre school boy. When i found out i was pregnant (unplanned) at 30 i decided that i was happy to be and wanted to keep the baby but that i didn't want to stay in the problematic relationship with the father. Therefore i've been a single parent from the outset.

I have framed this as about single mothers rather than single parents as it is my experience that single fathers are seen very differently, imo as heroes and glorified whereas single mothers get the demonisation treatment in popular culture.

Look forward to reading your thoughts.

good point, Santa. That's why there are countless articles about the perils to society of women drinking/smoking/sleeping around/having children at a young age/having children at an older age i.e. things that men have always done without censure. But never any about men doing those things.

and thanks.

it's been really interesting to come back and read the thread. nice to just light the touch paper and leave too so you really see what people think rather than influence it or start arguing your point.

an odd thought but what if it was all misdirection, that that was the crux of misogyny/patriachy etc. that we were the scapegoat to blame all ills on to misdirect attention from the real problems?

like patriachies jews?

probably a bit random.

But what was the real problem?

At what point in history, did men suddenly start getting the urge to enslave women?

I know there's a theory that it all went to pot with the introduction of agriculture, but why? In ancient societies, the goddess mother, Demeter and her equivalents, were the mosst worshipped and important of the gods - at what stage did men start pretending that life came from men and that women were only vessels, not full human beings?

why would enslaving women come with the invention of agriculture - because you suddenly needed a fixed labour force to do the jobs of growing and processing, and once the old hunter-gathering skills had been lost it became harder for people to just leave if they didn't like it?
once you have agriculture you have ownership of land.

though I am also thinking about that Ray Mears programme about ancient wild food, which demonstrated that there was an awful lot of processing work needed to extract the nutrition from many gathered foods - it wasn't just a matter of picking berries and scoffing them. And also there are hunter-gatherer cultures that are misogynist. So I'm not sure.

a lot of other things changed at the same time as the invention of agriculture - towns came around the same time IIRC.

Up until fairly recently in the West, if women became pregnant outside of marriage they were cast out. I don't think things have really changed that much but women aren't ashamed any more. And that's what gets society's ire.

Also a lot of men used to do the 'decent' thing and marry women they'd got pregnant - both of them decided that was the best thing to do. But now neither of them feel those kind of societal pressures and yet the disapproval still exists. My nan is 100 and told me years ago she would have divorced my grandad if she'd been able but there was no way for her to have done so without casting herself and her children into abject poverty. So she stayed with him.

No idea where I'm going with this really, just that I think that while in a lot of ways we seem to have made progress, the single mother still threatens an awful lot of our society's constructions.

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan Mon 06-Dec-10 17:17:46

just been trying to catch up on my thread given i started it and then went away for a few days. some really interesting ideas and thoughts then billhicks.

have reported a load of his posts to MN - don't usually but calling women hussies, suggesting forcibly administering abortion drugs to ones partner whilst pretending they were vitamins, accusing lesbians of being scared of penis's because they were nearly raped once and and women who talk of sexual assault as being hysterical little girls who nothing has ever happened to and the word JAPS was all a bit much for me.

is mn really here to entertain 23 year old men with no kids who hate women and recommend assaulting them?

i get there's a very tolerant low intervention philosophy here but there has to be a limit surely? i'd like to see him banned.

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I didn't report one sexist insult that was thrown at me nor did I simply retort with sexist remarks, I asked if it would be fine for me to respond to mindless sexist adhominem with more sexist ad hominem whilst demonstating examples of their behavior turned on it's head with all the ugly assumptions they come with using a person's sex/presumed personal history due to political affilliation. as a line of attack.

poshsinglemum Mon 06-Dec-10 17:22:30

Bill Hicks- have you been to see your psychiatrist yet?

I havn't trapped my ex at all. I did take the morning after pill by the way(it was a mutual decision); it didn't work and I was quite happy to continue the pregnancy without his support in any way. I no longer need him. He's a dead end. Like you.

Oh- and I work to pay my way too.

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You work to pay your way? I'm astonished. rolls his eyes I'll give you a pat on the back for working to support a child that you chose to have.

He is a dead end because he doesn't want children with you? Wow, that's fair.

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HerBeatitude Mon 06-Dec-10 19:06:36

"Whereas if you blame men, you have to admit that there has never been a time of civilised values."

Why blame men as a sex for anything? Should people start blaming blacks a race for crimes that black individuals have committed(in record numbers) or is that unfair? It is unfair, isn't it? When did this shit become about pinning the blame on people?

As for civilised values never having existed? How do you know that? Do you know the life story of every single person who ever lived on this planet?

www.libraryireland.com/SocialHistoryAncientIreland/III-XV-2.php

Before Ireland got destroyed by constant invasions, it was actually a pretty nice place to live for women.

We know women got treated badly throughout history and men treated badly thoughout history. We know that women still get treated badly and so do men. Just... women have had alot more help in recent years, I've posted numerous stories about men who have been fucked over by women to prove this shit isn't all one-sided.

Women for the most part aren't afraid(shouldn't be either) to stand up say "I don't think that is right." on behalf of women, women shouldn't be afraid to be an advocate for change when it comes to discrimination.

When will it be okay for young men to become advocates for men? How many years will we have to wait before we can do that without being suspected of trying to enslave women like some archaic tyrant?

This is what we get when we stand up for ourselves, I can only imagine what would have happened MRA's rocked up doing the same shit.

You don't need to cut and paste so frantically. We were here, we read it the first time.
What does your post have to do with the 3 thoughtful posts that preceded yours?

If we don't engage and just ignore, he will go away.

"Do you know the life story of every single person who ever lived on this planet?"

What exactly is the point of that question?

Young men shouldn't be afraid to stand up for their own interests. My beef with the way you are choosing to stand up for your so-called rights, is that most decent men would simply not recognise your version of rights as being valid, or something they would want to stand up for.

Most men and women want to live together in harmony. Feminism has never been about trying to give women dominion over men, it's been about trying to create a world where both men and women can function as full human beings and share the work, the joy, the resources and everything else, equally and fairly. Most reasonable men are in favour of that and would be disgusted by your horrible mysogny.

Most young men want to be fair and just and actually, they love women, they don't hate them. The problem is that what many people consider just and fair, is culturally constructed and when you analyse it from a feminist perspective, or a communist perspective, or a take-your-pick-of-any-other-outside-the-mainstream perspective, it turns out not to be so fair. Most people think they're against feminism not because of what feminism is, but because of what they think it is. Normal, emotionally healthy young men don't see their interests as being opposite to that of women - they see their interests as symbiotic with them. And in a fair and just society, men and women wouldn't be pitted against each other, they would work together, as millions do all over the world in spite of the patriarchy's existence. But you carry on with your hate-filled standing up for your privilege, no-one sensible is interested.

So, re agriculture - is that just one theory for the urge men suddenly had to enslave women, or are there others?

What do we know about the position of women as mothers in societies where there is no agriculture, or where it is a very minor part of the culture?

HB your 20.42 post was wonderful and I hope will be read by lurkers even if it was wasted on Bill.

So, re agriculture - is that just one theory for the urge men suddenly had to enslave women, or are there others?

I'm interested by this, could you elaborate or point me in the direction of some reading?

Agree with SethStarkAddersmum re your post.

Thank you

I dn't really know anything about the beginings of patriarchy or why it arose. Have never been interested in that angle until recently, as I hear a lot of "but that's what cave-men did, so it's natural" twaddle.

the theory that I took away after reading Womens History of the World, was that it was the realisation that men had a part to play in conception, which tied relatives closer together when before it had been much more communial. When men started seeing certain children as theirs they started to try and control them, and usurp the whole birth thing. Read it ages ago, probably hazy.
Also, history hasn't been a relentless drive one way or another. Womens rights have ebbed and flowed over time.
not sure how much sense that made.

it also touched on male gods usurping female gods around the same time. Sorry this is garbled. Will dig out the book for reading tonight, I really recommend it.

I have always wondered about the status of women in Austrlian aboriginal society, where the connection between sex and coception and birth had not been made. Anyone know anything about thaT?

I've just been looking up aboriginal conception. Read a bit about Spirit Children but don't really understand.

OP, I have never myself experienced demonisation of single mothers. And I personally have a great deal of respect for single mothers whether they are so by choice or by circumstance.

It is my opinion (as indeed it is for breastfeeding in public or at work)that each and every woman should care much less about the label or stigma which society hurls at them and just carry on doing what they are doing regardless of any ignorance or intolerance. It is the only way to normalise (or, perhaps, exorcise!) the "demonic"!

Santa, what a great point!

At the FiL conference, it was mentioned that for centuries, women have had to carry the burden of shame for the crimes men have done to them. Men have been let off scot free.

Greer reckons that if men are going to choose to opt out of parenthood en masse then they should still be obliged to cough up and pay for their decision. Men, the richest of men, should be taxed and the proceeds distributed to mothers. I absolutely believe this is the mark of an evolved society.

LittlePushka CHoice feminism is (thankfully) being abandoned now. It's peddles the idea that women can choose to be members of the subordinate sex, when they can't. It has to be society that changes its attitude towards women, not women who have to pretend society doesn't behave the way it does.

so absolutely, women have always been the scapegoats for society's ills. WHen the truth is that, lets be honest, men have too much power and they are the root of the ills of society. Women's birthright needs to be returned to them, in the form of power, and monetary resources, so that men can't go on hedonous rampages, orgies of violence and environmental destruction.

Sakura - Clearly, I did not say "women have to pretend society behaves differently"..what I said was, (and I paraphrase here for your benefit)that if women just got on and did what they want to do, without worrying or bleating on about what other folk ie society think about it, then we would have a shed load of happy women just doing what they want to do irrespective of what society wants them or thinks they ought to do. The shift in attitude would come as a result of women, figuratively speaking, flicking the V's at society.

The question should not be "Does my bum look big in this?" but "Is this the outfit I want to wear?"

Perhaps that is clearer for you.

NO, I got it the first time.

It's like poledancing: instead of feeling depressed that you've got your tits out for a bunch of leery men because that's the best (or only) economic option for you, look at it from another angle- as though it's empowering to have men at your feet. More empowering than becoming a lawyer or a politican or a banker.
Just change the way you see the world and voila! , problem solved

but yes, I take your point that women-as-a-group- need to embrace feminism and not join in with the woman-bashing that patriarchy indulges in. They shouldn't pander