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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are men confused about their role in society nowadays?

124 replies

poshsinglemum · 23/10/2010 16:36

My friend's bloke reckons they are and if so, is this to do with the feminsit movement?

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EvilAntsAndMiasmas · 25/10/2010 15:32

oops posted wrong link

EvilAntsAndMiasmas · 25/10/2010 15:33

THIS ONE FFS!!!!

EvilAntsAndMiasmas · 25/10/2010 15:34

god I am obviously losing it today.

sprogger · 25/10/2010 15:41

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tabouleh · 25/10/2010 15:43

N-dubs are clearly not confused about their role in the patriarchy. Hmm

BeenBeta · 25/10/2010 17:23

tabouleh - you raised a lot of interesting issues in your post @ 11.46 (and later) and some of which were floating around in my mind too as I posted. I dont feel attacked and would like to add a bit to your comments. Smile

The issue of how the role of women rapidly changed in the national crisis of WWII working in factories, on the land and in combat too but then suddenly thrown back into homemaker and childcarer roles as soon as the war ended is a good historical example of how society changes its attitudes much more slowly than real life practical circumstances sometimes require.

Your reference to home working by women in preindustral agraian society is interesting too. My own mother, a farmer's wife, was a SAHM but also telephone receptionist, shepherd, tractor driver, and bookkeeper too. I live in a city now that had a vibrant preindustrial economy based on micro craft industry consisting of thousands of families (men and women) making high value items of clothing and later in the industrial revolution it became a major centre for high craft mass production of homewares which emloyed and valued thousands of women for their dexterity.

I have my family tree back to about 1740 and beginning with itinerant tinkers, smiths, then butchers and then farmers the women were undoubtedly a silent resource in all those businesses. The men though were always named as 'tinker', 'smith', butcher, 'farmer'. It is clear what they did. The women in my family tree don't have professions except 'wife'. Society for hundreds of years had the roles mapped out for men quite clearly - now its not so clear what the role of men is and hence the source of confusion some men feel. Of course, many women are no longer just a wife either.

My own marriage certficate is an example. It says my profession 'shipping clerk' and my wife is 'stockbroker'. That is the first time in my family tree the woman in a marriage had a named profession.

EvilAntsAndMiasmas · 25/10/2010 17:30

BeenBeta - i'm interested in this: "women in my family tree don't have professions except 'wife'. Society for hundreds of years had the roles mapped out for men quite clearly - now its not so clear what the role of men is and hence the source of confusion some men feel.". Your illustration is of how women's roles have changed, but you then make the connection to men's roles. What is the thinking there?

BeenBeta · 25/10/2010 20:51

EvilAnts - I was just making the point that historicaly, society tightly defined and labelled men as whatever their profession or job was. Now men's roles are beginning to be defined differently and more loosely by society. Not just 'farmer' but as husband, care giver, etc. The old certainty of what a man 'is' has started to break down.

HerBeatitude · 25/10/2010 20:57

Hmm, not sure that's strictly true either BB - the Victorians had a very clear idea of the father as Paterfamilias, as well as his job. Also the idea of him as spiritual guide for his wife and children and in his community.

poshsinglemum · 25/10/2010 21:42

Thanks for all of your interesting comments.

I think that soem men are confused and I do worry that this comment may be a red flag. Ie; ''I am confused that my girlfriend has equal status to myself.''

Mabe feminism has crocked the boat but yes; those who don't like it will have to get over it!

I would say that I am pretty confused as a single mum though. I have to be all things to all people. I pride myself for being independant from a man yet I am scared that I will never again have a relationship and I winge sometimes that I don't have a supportive partner. I don't really enjoy doing it all myself tbh.

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poshsinglemum · 25/10/2010 21:43

rocked the boat!

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vastingavay · 25/10/2010 22:36

poshsinglemum, you do define yourself as a single mum, and perhaps it would help to think of yourself in other terms as you do seem to find it so limiting.

jameelaq · 29/10/2010 20:30

As the biggest complaint seems to be Picking Up Things That Men Have Left Lying Around.
Ummm, why don't you just like Not Do It, as a sort of feminist protest?

HerBeatitude · 29/10/2010 21:31

jameela this thread discusses why that is not a realistic long-term option.

HerBeatitude · 29/10/2010 21:40

And another one, related here Cognitive Dissonance thread

There's also a follow up thread to this:

cognitive dissonance part 2

And then one which discusses the whole phenomenon of Wifework

Wifework

poshsinglemum · 29/10/2010 22:09

I do define myself as a single mum ; because I am insecure about it and coming to terms with it. I have issues about my ''label''.

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HerBeatitude · 29/10/2010 22:27

Well tbh Posh, society defines you as a single mum. It's all v. well deciding that we're going to label ourselves differently, but we don't control the labels other people put on us.

jameelaq · 29/10/2010 22:51

HerBeatitude. I wasn't in fact being serious.
Surely the solution is to marry the right person in the first place. Remember all those student days and arguments between people one of whom is tidier/cleaner than the other? Well if it is such a big thing to someone they obviously married the wrong person. If it isn't such a big thing but just something else to moan about,well marriage is all about compromise isn't it?

DinahRod · 29/10/2010 23:10

Dh mentors a small group of 'fatherless' 14-16 yr old boys. They nearly all have a troubled relationship with their mums and some don't treat girls very well. If they are confused about their role it's due to a lack of positive male role models in RL or in the public eye (NDubs a case in point perhaps)

HerBeatitude · 29/10/2010 23:12

jameela, the threads examine and discuss why your proposition is wrong. Smile

HerBeatitude · 29/10/2010 23:17

Sorry, perhaps I should elaborate, I realise that it's a bit much to expect someone to read 3 threads, but this subject has been done to death recently (hence the 3 threads!) and there are so many nuanced arguments around this issue. Your approach basically blames indivdual women for marrying the wrong man, rather than looking at the systemic reasons as to why the division of domestic labour still tends to be wildly unequal even among couples who start off with all the best intentions of being equal.

The shortest thread is the first one I linked to, it's only about 100 posts. And it discusses some of this, but someone else may have more energy than me to discuss it with you on this thread as well.

zombishambles · 29/10/2010 23:24

My dh is very much bought into feminism with the result that we both try to work flexibly and split everything half and half with the result that we have both been taken into meeting rooms and told that we wont advance in our careers in our respective companies. Brilliant. Hmm

We are both obviously still committed to it but its fucking annoying.

DFridPsych · 11/02/2011 17:58

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Rhadegunde · 11/02/2011 18:05

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