Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

Hmm. Interesting. I think it becomes more insidious than that, though: witness the number of women who say 'ah, well, he can't help being hopeless at housework/childcare/fidelity' - that men somehow need to be looked after (while women are simultaneously downgraded in this looking-after stakes). The idea that somehow our brains and capacities are so different that - oops, how did that happen - women are just better at doing all the support stuff, while men get on with Being Manly.

But I also see, exactly, what you mean about the dissonance. And particularly in the relationship terms.

thought provoking argument
must think about it

But how many women Decide Not To Think About, eg, their husband's very responsible and high powered job, which they manage perfectly well, when their husbands is clattering around in the kitchen wailing "Karennnnn!? There's something wrong with this dishwasher! I told you I'm not very good with kitchen things when I met you! KArrrennnnn! The baby wants ^you! Karen! Where's my purple shirt, I need it for tomorrow?"

How much unconscious will power does it take to eat that shit and smile, wearily, and say to your friends "Men are such babies, really" - when you must know that he''s a perfectly competant human being who is choosing to make you do the shitwork....

How did that idea get there in the first place, that women are 'better' at doing the shitwork? I think it turned up as a mental defence against cognitive dissonance. Because if you don't believe that women are 'better' at the shitwork, then the only alternative is that someone who supposedly loves you is choosing to leech off your physical work in order to lead a nicer life for themselves, and that you're allowing it .... and that's not a very comfortable thought for anyone.

I am eternally beholden to my mil who, despite being batshit loco in many ways, raised her son to recognise women's humanity and not play the helpless idiot so as to dump the shitwork on someone else

This thread is v interesting I can feel my blood begin aboilin' lol

One day, one day I will put my brain to work and get some Post 16 education!

Avril, it's not that you are finding it hard - it is hard. But you feel that you must stick with it, so good old cognitive dissonance is insisting that you blame yourself for finding it hard, rather than accepting that you are doing the majority of the hard work and your partner is letting you.

Because if you accepted that, what else would you have to examine? WOuld you still, in fairness, be able to sleep next to him at night if you were lying there thinking "You will swan off to work in a clean, ironed shirt, and you will swan back in and sit down and do sod all, just like I used to do, and I am the one picking up the slack, and you must know this!"

of course, we could also argue that home-work isn't valued for the precise reason that men don't wish to do it - cognitive dissonance would arise if they recognised that they are treating someone they love as little more than a domestic servant, so they underplay the work involved, and tell themselves that their job requires so much concentration that they MUST get a full night's sleep, they cannot POSSIBLY remember when their children's jumpers are kept, and really, doesn't little wifey have it easy, pottering around at home all day? they believe that they are a good person, and they want to continue to believe this, but they also don't want to do the housework. Now, if the housework is hard work, and they don't do it, they are NOT a good person, and cognitive dissonance will arise. So housework CANNOT be hard work, because they MUST be a good person. Ergo, housework is easy.

HRHPrincessReality - engineer can't use the washing machine...
please... find the said washing machine instruction, hand it to DN and ask for explanation of how to use it.... better lol

I know - it is hard to change those status quo in relationships...

but as always - it takes two
if me or you change but those who are using our "services" won't
what are we going to achieve?

frustration at the least

lol at the washing machine though :)

exactly my point.

Which is why it's easier on the psyche to simply decide that your husband can't do it, that his testicles are some sort of brain injury, rather than carry the uncomfortable idea that he's rather see you work yourself into the ground that lift a finger to help himself.

And if you do rail against it and point out the trail of crap he leaves behind him then you are a nagging wife.

agree coldits - we are such people pleasers, who would do anything for peace and quiet...

I think that is where it starts

sorry ... of course meant to type - colditz

oh fuck

wastingaway/??

Moment of clarity. V. unsettling.

Good thread.

My pils have what seems to have a more or less equal relationship-considering their culture and age this is really impressive

I think this was also a big part of things- dh's father was away a lot at work but when back slotted right in iyswim and didn't plonked himself down and wait to be served

I think we need to also consider what we are modelling for our children

• in the 1920s many women campaigned against the suffragettes, against having the vote.

• roll on 100 years, many women in the church are agaisnt women priests, and if they are OK with women priests are against women bishops

some women even want to wear a burkha FFS.

good thread, many many examples of your OP all over MN

I am just jumping in here and I will no doubt go off on a tangent.

I have been on maternity leave for coming up to a year. I want to spend time with my baby but I get really really cross, as in my opinion housework has nothing to do with bringing up a child - but in reality I do a hell of a lot of it.

I have just purchased some audio books to listen while I do the housework as I am worried about going insane with the repetitive nature of the housework.

I had what could be termed a full-time high-powered job but I have left it -as I got paid well but I know I got paid up to 40% less than males doing the same role.

Funnily enough some so called high-powered girl friends have not bothered to check in or be even the least bit interested in my gorgeous baby. I take from their silence that I am now not worthy of time, as I am out of their set. One friend from work that has been supportive was a stay at home dad for a while.

It has been illuminating to me that perhaps for those girlfriends it was my status, nice clothes and office, money to spend and other bull shit rather than just me they were interested in.

Anyway getting back to housework - I found I have to put my child into nursery to enable me to keep doing it. DH moaned this morning about doing 2.5 hours housework last night after a long day at work and I replied "Welcome to my world". I really go on and go on about it to my husband to ensure he helps. I have never ever ironed a thing for him. He generally is pretty helpful but I find I have to do the deep cleaning and all the DIY and house maintenance.

And now, having had a baby that bf every 2 hours for about 4 months, I really believe that any husband who does not help say a breastfeeding mum in the early days of having a baby is pure evil. During my pregnancy I was very sick but worked FT so my DH did most of the housework then.

I suppose I am thankful that I had my baby at a later age, in that I have managed to have put some money aside however I find I really have to push the housework issue, otherwise I would feel subordinated. I have been very surprised at the level of conflict and how strongly I feel about the issue.

I consider myself a feminist.