Are men confused about their role in society nowadays?

[poshsinglemum]

My friend's bloke reckons they are and if so, is this to do with the feminsit movement?

Agree that society is far more "confused" about women's role - if you can define "confused" as "can't make up its mind" or "whatever decision you make it's the wrong one".

1)Women with no children whether they work or not = unnatural

2)Women with children who continue to work full time = unnatural, selfish, why did you have them if you don't want to look after them?

3)Women with children who work part time = uncommitted to work, with elements of (2) thrown in for good measure.

4)Women with children who stay at home full time = full gamut of insults from "benefit scroungers" to "yummy mummy" to "lady who lunches".

bloody good analysis there E&M

"Men everywhere need to get involved and demand some change, there does not have to be this separation of home and work and money-earning and childcare, it would be easy to mix it up more"

But that is what is happening in lots of families I know. Quietly and unobtrusively without any demanding. People just quietly getting on with it, men and women. Because it suits their family dynamics.

"I'm sure there are lots of men who'd like to spend more time at home"

Yes, IME there are. I agree that the earning potential is a problem for some families. We are lucky (if that is the right word) that I always earned more than DH and his job is family-friendly.

But society as a whole needs to stop looking down on men with 'soft-skills' and demanding they conform to stereotypes.

I wish the men who were "confused" about their roles, and the men who want to spend more time at home, and the men who want to do jobs traditionally left to women etc etc would all

give

feminism

a

F-ing

helping

hand

for once.

"Feminism still has some way to go to overcome such examples of patriarchal resistance." - well quite, but it's not women's work, and if all the men who feel this way rather than blaming women/feminism for "going too far" or "not doing enough" decided to get out there and pull their weight in terms of changing the world.

In fact, this is my phrase of the moment "feminism - it's not just women's work"

"feminism - it's not just women's work"

Yep.

Also how about "feminism - it's good for all of us".

"But society as a whole needs to stop looking down on men with 'soft-skills' and demanding they conform to stereotypes."

yep - that's what was being said to Pan upthread!

All this who's better at networking and relationships and XYZ and ABC - it is irrelevant - it is a distraction - it acts to divide men and women and pigeon hole them.

The range of different skills and personalities within the sexes is far greater than the difference between the average of the sexes.

Yes we know about on average men being physically stronger etc but there is so much coming from nurture and not nature.

Girl's are brought up to have less physical challenges - in Pink and Blue I remember there was an experiment about asking mothers to estimate which slope their baby DC could crawl up - mothers of DDs consistently under estimated and mothers of DSs over estimated and encourage their DSs to "go for it" etc!

Let's not fall into the trap TheShriekingHarpy is setting....

No need for feminists to enter into heated SAHM/WOHM debate. These debates and media associated etc are there to divide women.

Xenia takes a very strong line - sometimes I expect to provoke a response/because she can/to challenge prevailing culture - and sometimes I see it as a thought experiment.

I don't like what comes across as a lack of respect for SAHM but I am glad to see a woman suceeding in a profession/running her own business etc.

BTW what's wrong with a sucessful woman WOHM having "hired help" - who the hell do you think is enabling these male executives with children to function?!

Help of course - non £ earning wife often.

Oh but we are conspiratorial. The patriarchy isn't going to bring itself down (barring the long-deferred nuclear apocalypse of course).

I am amused at the idea men aren't good at networking. DH is never far from his iPhone and works in telesales. He is all about the soft skills.

It would do us well to root out these myths as often we are arguing from a different set of givens and it can be easy to forget that most people 'know' that no woman worked outside the home or other nonsense.

TheShriekingHarpy - why do you think such debtates in the media are prevalent?

For those not wanting to acknowledge the patriarchy a conspiracy theory - just think about how more powerful we are as women when we work together across borders/sexuality/age/class/wealth/experience - and when we don't fight about whether to work at home or also outside the home!

From Motherhood and Feminism:

"At the turn of the 21st centuary, the media announced news of supposed "mommy wars", portraying at-home moms and at-work moms as in perpetual battle with each other over whose work was more valuable, more morally sound, and more indicative of women's "freedom to choose". ... Most mothers would surface feeling inadequate or like failures, having felt so thoroughly dissected and criticized by "other" mothers. Some mother advocacy organizations fought back actively by creating a petition to be delivered to major media giants - a project called "ceasefire" criticized the media creation of the so-called wars."

This bit is inspiring: "The cease fire encouraged women to foster connections rather than "ill-will", to refuse to choose sides, and to recognize that few women are exclusively at-home or at-work moms since most who are not in the workforceree nter it at some level later, even if temporarily or part-time."

I will be promoting this cease fire on MN!

(Other interesting looking books mentioned in that chapter are: The Truth Behind the Mommy Wars and Perfect Madneess: Motherhood in the Age of Anxiety - I've just ordered 2nd hand copies of these from Amazon and also The Mommy Myth).

In the practical parenting workshop it was said that we bring up our boys to be 'strong, wild, insensitive but then expect them to be good husbands and parents...' no wonder they're confused!! I think she's right.

My son wants (8) wants a fur real pet for christmas and my sister (who has a perfectly equal household) screwed her nose up, I replied that I had dolls until I was eleven!!

sounds about right, Posie. It is sad.

"Having it all" sounds so exciting doesn't it? I get my bloodred ballgown and mansion with landscaped gardens and wealth, fame, beauty and acclaim...

...Oh no, hang on a minute. It just means I get to have children and the privilege of working so that I and the aforementioned children don't starve or freeze.

new thread in AIBU....

done

Possibly not the right place to post but...

New N-dubs song (hate the band btw).

Bloke singing

See I need some kinda lady
That will feed me daily
Everytime I come home
She'll be waiting for me
'Cause I've been thinkin' lately
That life alone is crazy
I wanna hold somebody while I sleep

Woman

See I need some kinda man
That, that can understand me
There be no bosses who I have to be
Sometimes I get lonely
I just need a homie
Then I might let him be the boss of me

Just says it all doesn't it?

Posie's thread

oh brilliant another classic track from the home of groping and bullying arseholes.