Are men confused about their role in society nowadays?

[poshsinglemum]

My friend's bloke reckons they are and if so, is this to do with the feminsit movement?

Of course blokes are good at building relationships and networking! The old boys' network, the Masons, Members' clubs - all of those are examples of male networking and relationship-building structures. Women have nothing comparable.

Why on earth would you think that a contentious statement?

ah, different structures to that which I meant - I was referring to to 'networking and relationships' on a broader level, for the advancement of society i.e. if you want a message spread widely, tell it to lots of children and women. If you want it restricted, tell it to a bloke.
Similar to the notion that 'to educate a man, you educate a man, to educate a woman, you educate a nation'.

of course all of those references you refer to are restricted, but powerful.

I am completely unfamiliar with these concepts. Men don't work to advance society, is that what you're claiming? Men don't have a public voice? Men don't think on a global scale?

???

We don't seem to be understanding each other's terms of reference here. You mean you don't understand the 'educate' reference??

Of course I don't mean those things you mention. And it is now way too late to type anymore.

No, we're clearly missing each other completely.

I have never heard the 'educate' reference before, nor the idea that men keep messages to themselves where women spread them. And I don't understand them now that I have heard them.

If you have the time/patience tomorrow, I'm really intrigued.

yes, ~I suspect it's 'scale' we are differing on.

night.

That quote sounds to me to imply that you only educate women if you want to educate everyone in a nation, but I suspect if refers more to the fact that the strongest predictor of academic success is the level of education of the mother. Which is sometimes used as a justification for teaching women anything. Not because of the value in educating women, but because they will then better bring up the next generation of men.

I think that there has been an issue in some communities where a generation of men who had very traditional work became long term unemployed, and their value as being the breadwinner pretty much disappeared. Otherwise I think it is a lame excuse for not thinking about your own individual responsibilities and role in life. Feminism attempted to break some very lazy stereotyping about gender based roles. Sadly there has been a significant backlash with all the Men are from Mars Women are from Venus rubbish.

Everyone is "confused about their roles", now that in Western societies women and men receive equivalent educational opportunities rather than being educated separately to perform very distinct, but complementary, tasks as adults.

The good thing is that we get to choose our own roles, albeit in negotiation with our life partners. Both partners can go out to work to earn money, and share the running of the household, the bringing up of children and the daily chores and errands. Or else one partner can focus most of his/her energies on earning money and the other partner can focus most of his/energies on the home and children.

It is more "difficult to work out" than "confusing" IMO.

sprogger - "I hear a lot of generalisations from both men and women about how women choose to stay home because it suits their innate natures".

To be fair though, there are a large number of threads on MN with women expressing a very strong desire to give up paid work so they can spend more time with their children and finishing their post with words such as 'my DH/DP earns enough to support us'.

In other words, lots of women expressing a strong natural instinct to adopt the traditional role of bringing up and nurturing children over going out to paid work outside the home. No one argues against them doing that but what if their male partner wanted to also do that and really wanted his female partner to go out to work instead so he could look after children? Is he being lazy and shirking his responsibility to 'provide' or is he right in exressing a wish to play a more significant role in his childrens' lives than men traditionally play?

It's always confusing for individuals when the old societal norms break down and roles have to be renegotiated. It happens periodically troughout all human history. In the old days, there would have been no question about it. Society expected the man to go out to work and the woman stay at home but now its not so clear cut.

LeninGhoul - I don't feel under any pressure from a patriarchal society. The intense competition around me (which I am pretty good at ignoring) comes from other women .

Women are brought up and form part of a patriarchal society as well. You have to make a decision to resist it - the default is to take part in it.

Excellent posts Lenin :)

WRT structures and networking - men have had the money and power structures sewn up these few millennia, they haven't done it by sitting in their rooms and staring moodily out of the window.

In answer to the OP - this is the sort of thing my grandma comes out with, by which I think she means that it's shocking that men these days are expected to be a) decent individuals taking their fair share in childraising, and b) they don't get jobs/respect/admiration automatically purely by virtue of their dangly bits. :o

Just remembered a good comment from Helena Kennedy QC talking about the prevalence of men on awards committees and as recipients of awards. To paraphrase: "he reminds me of me at that age - pin a badge on him!"

BeenBeta

"lots of women expressing a strong natural instinct to adopt the traditional role of bringing up and nurturing children over going out to paid work outside the home"

I would rephrase as follows:

"the traditional role of working in the home bringing up and nurturing children over going out to paid work outside the home"

See what I have inserted there - the word "working" wrt to when a mother is raising children and performing household tasks.

I really have no problem with people choosing to be a SAHM - that is a great choice for lots of people - for some it is a priviledge and for some it is not a "choice" as due to other factors their ideal choice is not open.

I am also passionate about wanting more women to have a say in policy making/politics/business - this can be achieved in many ways and does not have to degenerate into SAHM v WOHM.

There are lots of issues re this: maternity/paternity leave - access to high quality affordable flexible childcare - flexible working - respecting those women who choose to work full time - making sure there are routes back to high level professional appointments after career breaks etc etc.

When we increase the number of women active in public life and business then the goal of equality becomes closer.

"In the old days, there would have been no question about it. Society expected the man to go out to work and the woman stay at home but now its not so clear cut."

Only in the more recent past BeenBeta - society expects women to go out to work sometimes - eg during the world wars - guess where the stereotype of the 1950s housewife comes from - it is generated to fulfil that gap created by women being pushed out of employment when men returned from the war.

The work at home raise family v work outside the home earning £££ is recent in our history.

I have a US book Motherhood and Feminism:

Before and in the early years of the 1800s, many families' means of making a living were directly tied to home activities, suh as farming and in-home production, through which family groups worked together to create food, clothing and other wares. Then cames the Industrial Revolution... this shift posed a dilemma for the care of their children, who now would not longer be surrounded by adultsand busined in the work of family economies. Mothers and married women, especially of the middle class, came to be seen more exclusivelyin terms of their domestic functions and were assigned the "private" realm of home, as men were assigned the "public" realm of work outside it. With this shift emerged the belief that womenshould be solely in charge of the home and the children. Since then mothering and domesticity have been initimately tied"

(NB this is the "separate spheres" ideology for this interested).

I would encourage you to take a look at your family tree - census info/marriage certificates/birth certificates - females in the past are highly likely to either be working class with jobs listed (eg not housewife) and therefore utilising some childcare at some stage. Or they will be upper class and are very likely to have servants/nannys etc to help with the childcare!

I hope you won't take this as an attack (as as similar statement of opinion was done by another male poster on this thread ) - this is important to me as a challenging of mainstream culture (this is my current type of feminist activism).

I think that society is confused about men's role in society.

I have an acquaintance who left home when she was 16 because her dad used to beat up her mum regularly. She has had a series of similar relationships to her mum. But she won't get together with any decent men because if they don't speak with their fists from time to time they are wimps.

Also it has to be said that 'real men' go out to work, just as 'real women' stay at home to look after babies. Any fule know that

Men have to forge their own paths and try to not to care what 'society' thinks, in the same way as women do. But stupid ignorant narrow-minded assumptions about gender roles should be outlawed. Including those held by women!