Right then, can I get you opinion on something. Abuse in of women in post war Berlin

[girlylala0807]

Good evening,

Im studying history at university. We have recently been discussing the rape of German women by the Red Army. As im sure you understand, it is a very sensitive topic. However, ive beena bit shocked by the attitudes of fellow students. I dont know if its because im older, well im 30 most of them are 21.

So the stance most of them had was that rape in this case was acceptable and that Berlin women could not be considered to be victims.

They said it was acceptable when you viewed it in the context of the Holocaust. They also said that basically all Germans were guilty of some kind of Nazi crime so they deserved what they got.

This does not sit well with me. Can you share your thoughts with me on this one ladies.

The women were seen as gifts to the hard working war torn Russian liberators.

There was a tooth for toothe attitude, the Germans deserved what they got.

I cannot find anything that makes rape in this case justifiable. Its not justifiable under any circumstances.

SGM - some more points of reference re books please.

Ah ladies,

my darling ds had just started to scream, I suspect he will shortly need to go into bed with me as he is not feeling great.

Im going to have to go for no but thank you for helping me confirm what I thought in the first place was in fact correct. Will check in again to see how the discussion pans out.

I have written a novel about this and it was published a few years ago. I feel very strongly about this war crime and it is one reason for my hatred of Stalin and his henchmen. It was despicable.

www.amazon.co.uk/Woman-Berlin-Diary-April-1945/dp/1844081125/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1287522206&sr=8-1

All I know about this I learnt in the above linked to book so excuse me if my understanding is not upto the high brow thinking with deep background knowledge of your fellow students !!!!!

Seriously, I am afraid of not explaining myself very well but wanted to say what struck me most strongly when reading this book...

There was a passage when the author explained that yes they were really suffering and were victims of massive unthinkable crimes but because so many women were suffering together it somehow, for most, seemed and was something they could survive and I remember sobbing over the page because I found it explained so terribly well the resilience of humanity and perhaps specifically of women when unity exists even in the worst and most confused of circumstances.

Thank you SGM. This is one subject that cuts very deep for me.

Oh my favourite subject!

No, a lot of Germans did not go along with the Holocaust. The NSDAP were elected not so much on an anti-semitic card but because of their Versailles revisionist mandate. True Hitler implemented anti semitic legislation like the Nuremburg laws but contrary to Goldhagen's assertion, the German people were not 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' or an assenting genocidal community. They were often anti-semitic (frankly anti-semitism was rife in Europe then) but that is in a different ball park to sanctioning genocide.

Reactions to Krystallnacht (and I've studied the Primary Sources) suggest that whilst some approved the violence meted out to German Jews in this incident, many looked on in silent horror - the Nazi dictatorship had teeth. Don't forget the Munich University White Rose students were guillotined for leafleting against the Nazis.

The Final Solution was cloaked in euphemism and secrecy and for those Germans who suspected or had heard rumours that Jewish 'resettlement' in Poland was actually extermination, most were fearful of the consquences of ever voicing it.

Anyway - I realise noone here is saying that German women deserved it because of the Holocaust and in fact you are arguing that this is an indefensible position (I agree), but I was troubled by the suggestion that there was widespread German consent to the holocaust.

Vis a vis the Russian's actions - it was dreadful and appalling but WWII is known for its brutalisation of warfare. The seige of Leningrad by the Germans where citizens were blockaded in and died of starvation, ultimately resorting to cannibalism. The Commisar Order about killing Bolshevik Commisars as agents of the 'Judo-Bolshevik conspiracy', the death camp of Jasenovic (dare you to wiki it) where Croats murdered Serbs in the most grisly way.....

The violence, the hardships of life as a soldier - it inured them to violence and left them without compassion and empathy.

A fascinating but very disturbing period of history

Exactly - that's what I was saying!

hmc, did German troops carry out mass rapes of foreign women? I haven't seen any links about that? Did it happen? are there any links?

Oh yes I know Browning, Stewie - found that really interesting. Also fascinating - Bauman 'Modernity and the Holocaust' (Sociologist rather than Historian) - I expect you've read it but if not its hugely interesting.

Claig - I'll try and find you some links tomorrow, promise

Did they rape Russian women when they occupied Russia? Did they rape Serb women or Dutch women in mass rape sanctioned by the military command as the Russians did?

It is still up for debate how many Germans knew about/supported the Holocaust. There is a book called 'Did You Know About It' (or something like that, the title is actually German) and it tries to explore how many people were aware of the Holocaust