Right then, can I get you opinion on something. Abuse in of women in post war Berlin

[girlylala0807]

Good evening,

Im studying history at university. We have recently been discussing the rape of German women by the Red Army. As im sure you understand, it is a very sensitive topic. However, ive beena bit shocked by the attitudes of fellow students. I dont know if its because im older, well im 30 most of them are 21.

So the stance most of them had was that rape in this case was acceptable and that Berlin women could not be considered to be victims.

They said it was acceptable when you viewed it in the context of the Holocaust. They also said that basically all Germans were guilty of some kind of Nazi crime so they deserved what they got.

This does not sit well with me. Can you share your thoughts with me on this one ladies.

What is most disturbing here is that a group of university students have such mysogynist attitudes and are so uneducated in basic philosophical and legal notions, that they can hold these views.

I bet they wouldn't hold these views about the mass punishment of hutus and tutsis. Or would they?

I agree with Elephants - this debate is too important to let a group of young people who are supposedly being educated, to walk out of the room without having the mysogynist world view that their families and schools have obviously given them, challenged properly. If they were all sitting there expressing rank racism, I'm pretty sure the lecturer would have intervened. Girly, put it to the lecturer that this horrible mysogyny is not more acceptable than racism and ask him/ her how s/he would have dealt with it if it were a discussion where the mass punishment of racial groups were being discussed, instead of that of one gender.

I agree with HB

"If they were all sitting there expressing rank racism, I'm pretty sure the lecturer would have intervened. Girly, put it to the lecturer that this horrible mysogyny is not more acceptable than racism and ask him/ her how s/he would have dealt with it if it were a discussion where the mass punishment of racial groups were being discussed, instead of that of one gender."

I think it was more a sort of racism, rather than misogyny. These young people have been brainwashed and believe that teh Germans deserved it, just as the Russian troops thought. They have been so brainwashed that they think that the Germans who were raped were not women, they were "Germans", they were "Nazis" and that is why they think it was "acceptable".

This is what the OP said

"So the stance most of them had was that rape in this case was acceptable and that Berlin women could not be considered to be victims.

They said it was acceptable when you viewed it in the context of the Holocaust. They also said that basically all Germans were guilty of some kind of Nazi crime so they deserved what they got."

That is how these young people think, because that is what society has taught them.
If it was Spanish women who had been raped by one of the sides in the Spanish Civil War, then they wouldn't think it was acceptable. But this was German women and they think it is therefore acceptable.

Even the lecturer won't intervene to stop teh racism, because the lecturer has also been brainwashed. The OP wasn't brainwashed, but she is unusual.

The students in that class did. I think they are not alone. This is what they have subconsciously been taught.

"They also said that basically all Germans were guilty of some kind of Nazi crime so they deserved what they got."

I think the OP is a shining example of someone who is different to what is a very commonly held view.

Often lecturers prefer to let students work things out over three years in their own way. Believe me, we are often appalled at what we hear. But castigating a bunch of new students often ends up silencing them for the rest of the year. I doubt very much your lecturer agrees with this view - perhaps you should mention the discussion and your shock to them, though? I agree it's dodgy whether or not to intervene - I probably would have.

God, no wonder everyone is so bloody pig-ignorant, if this is the standard of teaching they're getting at university, FGS.

I mean, this is basic philosophical stuff, right? This is really really basic, we were discussing this stuff at the age of 14. (Collective punishment and human rights, not mass rape)

You can challenge students without castigating them, cockles.

Gentle probing, questioning, is all that's needed. Castigating isn't educating.

agree with StewieGriffinsMom. It's not unusual, even the lecturer was an example of it.

People are basically good, but they are very easily influenced by other forces. Many Germans will have believed much of the Nazi propaganda against Jewish people. These students will believe much of what they have been subconsciously taught. People are influenced by what the powers that be tell them. They can be influenced to do evil things by evil people. It is classic propaganda. Even politicial correctness can be dangerous because the powers that be can use it to influence people to believe anything they want.

Independent thinkers, who stand out from the crowd, and who see that they are being manipulated and rare. The majority believe what they are told. That is how evil regimes are able to get away with what they do.

We have seen some very nasty threads in the Politics section with attacks on benefit "scroungers", disabled people and sneering "jokes" at lesbians. Even the people making these comments are not really bad people deep down, but they have also been influenced by the media and other forces until they end up with these views. That's why lecturers like Stewie and her DH are great, because they make it a duty to educate and stand up against some of these prevailing trends.

'You can't ignore the fact that this crime was gendered and the class is supporting it because they are sexist.'

but they wouldn't have supported the rape of Spanish women by one of the sides in the Civil War. Many of the class were probably women. I don't think it is a class of rape supporters. I think their view of "Nazis" has made them blind to the rape of ordinary women and children. It has led them to accept inhumanity and barbarity. It is this type of thinking that allows soldiers to torture and degrade prisoners as we have seen in recent years.

I'm puzzled why the discussion centred only on the rape of German women by the Red Army. The Red Army was by far from being alone in raping women in occupied territories. The German Army did, as did the Allies.

Thanks for those, SGM. I will read them. You see, i have met some of the senior officers who were out there. Not well, but... You'll understand that your previous post on the subject was a little disturbing. Some MNers may also have had husbands serving in Bosnia. I think they would be stunned too.

The rape of German women by the Red Army is widely acknowledged as being the largest mass rape in history. Some American soldiers were executed for raping allied women during the Normandy invasion. Widespread sanctioned rapes by armed forces are not that common. Soldiers are often executed for it. Armies are disciplined fighting forces and discipline is rigidly enforced. The scale of the rapes carried out by the Red Army and the DRC army are highly unusual.

My first novel did well in Germany and when my German editor asked me about my second and I told her it was about the Red Army advance into Berlin and what happened to the women there was a long silence. Then, in a very quiet voice, she told me that she could not publish the book in Germany because it would be too painful. I wondered whether her own mother might have suffered in 1945.

Well also we can ignore the fact that British and American soldiers raped women too. We don't need to confront the fact that "our boys" committed human rights abuses on women and children.