Right then, can I get you opinion on something. Abuse in of women in post war Berlin

[girlylala0807]

Good evening,

Im studying history at university. We have recently been discussing the rape of German women by the Red Army. As im sure you understand, it is a very sensitive topic. However, ive beena bit shocked by the attitudes of fellow students. I dont know if its because im older, well im 30 most of them are 21.

So the stance most of them had was that rape in this case was acceptable and that Berlin women could not be considered to be victims.

They said it was acceptable when you viewed it in the context of the Holocaust. They also said that basically all Germans were guilty of some kind of Nazi crime so they deserved what they got.

This does not sit well with me. Can you share your thoughts with me on this one ladies.

We cna just pretend the nasty communists did it, none of the good guys.

There are men who are rapists and murderers in any army and they do commit rape, but an army has strict discipline and widespread mass rape sanctioned by the military command, is very unusual.

Quattrocento, the scale of rape in Germany was far higher than elsewhere. It simply was. It was industrial in scale. You are talking about almost every woman in some cities was raped and probably gang raped. Even women who were in the labour wards of hospitals were raped. Even while they were giving birth.

Another part of Europe that experienced bad rape problems was the Rhineland, where Algerian soldiers were particularly vicious against German women. But the scale was not as big.

Yup, we had some pleasant allies.

Yes you are right dittany. Some of the armies in the Bosnian conflict are different to the Britsh army or French army etc. I am probably thinking more about the armies of the larger powers.

Of course Allied, non Soviet, soldiers rapes too. The difference was that if a British or American officer complained he wouldn't have been sent east in a cattle wagon in advance of a bullet or a spell in the gulag. That's the huge difference. If you were a Russian officer and you complained, and some did, you were being very brave indeed. Many Russians were kind, especially to children, giving them food, for instance. But many of them had been brutalised by years of war and life under Stalin. Not that is an excuse for their appalling behaviour.

Yes I'm a bit nonplussed that people seem unaware that mass rape is one of the tools of war.

In the same way that pornography now is actually - it's done to de-moralise the fighting men (the important bits of humanity), the raped women (the unimportant bits) are incidental.

Yes Stewie, I think you are right about the Bosnian conflict. I agree also that there are many brutal men in armies and if unchecked they certainly will rape and torture.

Mass rape on the scale of what the Red Army did is not the norm. I don't think that that is going on in Afghanistan for instance.

By that I mean by Nato forces.

You need to meet more senior army officers, SGM.

Anyway, off to bed with my rapist husband.

I am originally from Hungary, and this is still a very sensitive issue there after all these years.

girlylala Never forget that history is written by the victors. Am always shocked by the inhumane attitude towards the population of countries under invasion during the 2nd world war. I do not think we can imagine the suffering.

There is a wonderful film about orphans after the war called "Somewhere in Europe" which always makes me cry. Not the usual black and white rubbish war propaganda.

Hmm, I don't know, sometimes I think it's a case of a real deep-seated hatred against us and then other times it's just sheer indifference as we are considered a total irrelevance. (Which I suppose is born of deep seated hatred)

What seems to be missing from many debates on this subject is that the fact that it is rape is significant. It is not lopping off limbs or heads, or electrocuting people, or shooting them (although all those happen too sometimes as part of the same attack of course :() - it is rape.

That is what gives the clue that it is a gendered crime, even when it is being done to men and boys (ridiculous as that might sound).

A lot of the arguments seem to talk about rape as if it were interchangeable with any of these other horrible things, but it isn't, it's specific.

very informative and interesting thread, thanks.

OP - are you going to take this further? Because for a lecturer to fail to challenge a view which is a highly misogynistic one is unprofessional; it creates a hostile learning environment for women.

When I was a lecturer I would have been in huge trouble if someone had made a racist or homophobic comment and I had let it stand, because this would have counted as me failing to create a safe and inclusive learning environment for all students.

Now, in the real world, we know that misogyny is tolerated where other types of prejudice aren't; also that some people will dismiss it on the grounds that some women were saying it. But the only way to get these issues taken seriously is to stand up and make a fuss about them.

This needs to be on the agenda at your next student reps' meeting or whatever mechanism you have for feeding back to the lecturers. Then the lecturer will have to explain a bit more about why they did not challenge the comments. The best outcome is an apology and for the lecturer in question to make time to raise the issue in class again and explain why historians and philosophers do not consider it a reasonable view; even if you don't manage to secure that, though, you will still have made people think about it.

Surely there must be a space for the students to be made to see how similar their views were to the views of the nazis etc?

I really think your lecturer should bring it up again - can you talk to him/her?

Wow,

I have just got back to the thread. So many responses. Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply.

I will have a proper read through everything very soon.

Hey girly print the thread out and show your lecturer if you feel you need to.