is there a new cognitive dissonance thread?

[kickassangel]

if so, please link, i can't find it.

if not, i'd like to add some things

using personal experience to prove a point is not a great argument. we have to start with the bigger picture, then see personal experiences as a case study which exemplifies, but does not prove a point.

i'm not even sure that i view myself as a feminist. i view myself as someone who believes in equality (not just on male/female issues). the generalisations about feminism being a religion i find offensive, as they both ignore the patriarchal society we live in (and this assertion can be backed up by endless statistics & experiences), and assume that one particular viewpoint is religious.

is marxism a religion? what about other schools of thought?

feminism is a broad range of thought, and there will be changes and shifts within the arguments, just as there are in other sociological concepts. and there will be women who abuse, just as there are men who do so.

however, look at the structure of society, and it is impossible to say that it isn't patriarchal. just look at the possession of wealth, the media representation of people, the male/female ration in positions of power.

if it was as simple as some women 'not bothering' to push themselves forward, there would still be enough women to fill 50% of all key positions in society, and to hold 50% of the wealth, but that isn't what happens. so, it sin't due to a lack of women exerting themselves, it is due to the inherent sexism within society.

"Nope, it means that only women are physically capable of carrying babies. The argument that men do all the raping is the exact equivalent. Evolution has meant that both sexes are capable of great good and great harm, just in different ways."

So men rape because they physically can. And that is down to evolution - that is rape apology and hugely insulting to men who manage to control their 'natural' urge to rape.

If you find it unpleasant being called a rape apologist perhaps you shouldn't make rape apologist arguments?

Larry said;

"An argument that is really detestable is that men are responsible for wars and rapes."

Then Larry continued with;

"Of course it is men!"

So men do all (most, for the sake of precision) the raping. But the argument that men are responsible for the rapes they commit is detestable.

That is rape apology.

Beachcomber,

I gave you an equivalent analogy regarding women and late abortion. It is sick in the same way as your argument is.

"Men" are not responsible for the rapes "they" commit. The rapist IS responsible for the rape "he" commits, as an individual.

Get it? It is about individual as opposed to group responsibility? Criminals are criminals. Males who are non criminals do not have to take responsibility for those who are. What is so complex about that argument?

Oh and having a late abortion - something women agonize over and which elicits much discussion over moral conflict is on the same level as forcibly penetrating someone. Right.

Larry could your posts get any more offensive?

Please don't feel the need to try just to prove a point.

Beachcomber,

Your posts are the best examples of sophistry of any on here. You deliberately miss the point someone is making because you do not want to debate it. You then take a sentence or a few words completely out of context and make your case against that.

I would really like to understand why? If you feel that I am wrong, argue against what I am saying, not what I am not saying.

Larry I am not stupid.

I do realise that my DH is not responsible for the rapist who just raped a woman somewhere in the world whilst we were having this depressing exchange.

I feel this thread is moving back into the realms of 'let's educate Larry about what feminism actually is' again.

I'm afraid I don't have the will or the inclination. Good day.

Eagerly awaiting delivery of my windscreen wipers...

do they come in different colours wasting? I only want things that are colour co-ordinated you know...

Your posts on this issue are sick and offensive Beachcomber.

Oh do fuck off there's a dear footlong.

Classy women arent you my dear! And again I will tell you NO. Deal with it.

Blackduck, dirt-coloured so they can't see them coming.

larry- Beachcomber has made your point for you. I jsut hope that even one person will read this and see her arguments for what they really are.

Beachcomber,

Every single one of your posts, especially when you take the time to "educate Larry what feminism actually is" imply that men as a whole have to take responsibility for some men's actions.

Clearly, you have had to employ cognitive dissonance to make an exception of your DH.

Beachcomber,

Good day to you, too. Have a great one.

I suppose one could argue that every man who doesn't actively fight patriarchy condones it.

Can I have two sets?

Do they do BOGOF offers??

Chance would be a fine thing.

re: late term abortion analogy to rape.

And then to accuse other people of being sick and wrong.

Obviously you have never known someone go through a late-term abortion.

Everyone I know who has been through this has had to do it as a result of severe problems with the foetus. It has been heartbreaking for the mother and the rest of the family. In fact, these late abortions can only take place if there is serious threat to the life of the mother or the foetus.

And you compare that with raping someone?

"Who is responsible for every single illegal late abortion in the world? Women?

Does that mean women are naturally babyhaters?

Nope, it means that only women are physically capable of carrying babies. The argument that men do all the raping is the exact equivalent. Evolution has meant that both sexes are capable of great good and great harm, just in different ways"

So rape is the way that men enact their choice to "do great harm", and late-term abortion is women's way of "doing great harm"?

That is unbelievable, and I hope shows to anyone who was still in doubt exactly what kind of person you are.

Can I go back to a post by HerBeatitude earlier, please?

She said:
Why do you think feminists here are unhappy?

Perhaps some are - statistically, it's likely to be the married ones. (Sorry sisters ). But do you honestly think that people have a particular world-view because of emotional dissatisfaction, rather than an analysis of what they know about the world?

I suppose a lot of people would accuse the Marxists I referred to of only being marxist becuase they are unhappy. But that isn't true - some of them are, to be sure, and I am certain that a number of them have this philosophy because their particular interpretation of it, lets them off the hook vis a vis getting a job and taking responsibility for their lives; but many of them are perfectly happy, functional people wth normal happy lives. They hold a philosophy with which I disagree, because they have observed the world adn done reading which leads them to the conclusion with which I disagree. I don't attribute that conclusion to unhappiness on their part.

Re your musings about who is happy or not, I thought that was one of the points of the thread - to try and work out why so many people are unhappy even though the whole of society and their own upbringing and education, is telling them that the logical thing they ought to be, is happy. And whether cognitive dissonance is the result of that and how people can stop feeling that so that they have more meaningfully happy relationships.

Perhaps we ought to start a new thread asking how many feminists around here are really happy and why. And if not, why not. I suspect that many feminists are more happy than not, as their analysis of their personal situations (the personal is political) enables them to tackle unhappiness more directly and therefore hopefully, avoid cognitive dissonance.

This really interests me. I had massive congitive dissonance leading up to the breakup of my abusive relationship with XP. Once I left, I resolved that and it made me feel 100% happier and more true to myself. My DTs were very young at the time (4 months). They are now nearly 4 years and I am starting to experience cognitive dissonance again. I have a wonderfully flexible job that I consider myself very lucky to have. I enjoy it. However, it is barely stretching me and I would love to retrain to do something more stimulating and challenging. Money is a bit of an obstacle to this (it costs an awful lot to retrain), but I could find a way around that if I could get everything else in place. What is really handicapping me is childcare. Trying to find flexible, affordable professional childcare that will work for anything other than a 9-5 job is nigh-on impossible here - a situation probably true across most of the country, apart from cities and larger towns. However, I feel I ought to be able to make it work if I am as indomitable/determined as I like to think I am. I am struggling to make the practical reality meet with the mindset, and the only thing that plugs the gap is feminism, which inspires me to find a solution to benefit not only myself but other women in my situation.

Is this cognitive dissonance? Or am I just clinging on to obstacles (e.g. I suppose I could move to a city, which would bring me greater job/retraining opportunities and better childcare options)? How does this fit into being single or married? I am certainly happier than when I was in a relationship, but that's because it was abusive. If I was in a relationship with a man who was truly supportive and pulled his weight domestically and in terms of childcare, my life would easier than it is now. But I rather like being single and feel that getting married simply to improve financial stability and childcare options is a bit depressing (but then isn't that what a lot of marriages are based on, when it comes down to it after the initial romance has worn off?)

I am only musing on this and typing as I think, so forgive me if I sound rambling, but HerBeatitude really got me thinking and I think it's worth us all exploring her point.

Optimists I think you should trust your gut. Boredom and depression are HUGE indicators that things aren't right. A marriage could be happy on paper, for example- great husband, great father- but the woman feels a niggling sense of boredom. SHe either listens to that feeling and changes something or ignores it, papers over the cracks, and self-medicates with shopping, alcohol, eating or overwork...

My problem was/is that my marriage is happy on paper, but I was miserable for the first few years. IT was only when I accepted I was depressed, that marriage isn't the Best Thing Ever to happen to a woman, that maybe divorce would be a good option, that I immediately felt better and, ironically, my marriage improved.

if you say you feel better now you're single that's a good sign. Definitely don't marry because of any thoughts it'll be easier. Read "wifework" by Maushart and you'll find that a husband increases the workload for a woman. I will say the good thing about marriage is that there is someone there who has got your back. BUt don't marry for practical reasons.