Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

I live in America. I find ninety nine percent of what's on television gross. Pharmaceutical adverts for drugs people don't need. Airbrushed women with improbable figures, endless crime dramas with sexy female victims (special victims unit ffs), dumb comedies where the father is always right, reality tv shows offering false dreams, 'news' programs which sensationalise crime and illness (this woman's aneurism is a ticking time bomb, watch tonight on 'when things explode in your head!') etc. etc.

Porn is part of it. But all these images are offensive, distorted versions of reality. I fully acknowledge that but don't see what you can do about it. I don't want to watch so I turn the tv off.

Maybe they damage society but all you can do is vote with your remote control and encourage others to do likewise.

there are so many holes in the hardcore anti-porn arguments here you could strain pasta in em.

what about erotica? what about gay porn? what about amateur porn? what about porn mags and lads mags?

are all the people involved in these rapist misogynists too? even the females?

and to imply that if you're not against porn per se, you must therefore support the rape and torture of women is dense. to the max.

I totally agree with you Carmen that lots of things are horrible - not just porn.

I don't think one justifies the other however and I think there are lots of things we can do about it. If we just shrug our shoulders and accept the abuses that happen in porn as some sort of inevitability then we will never get anywhere.

Blinks how about you tell us what the holes in our arguments are rather than just declaring there are holes.

Personally I have similar objections to porn mags and lads mags as I do to filmed porn. I have already discussed my experience with and objections to amateur porn. I think a lot of gay porn has a theme of submission and domination that replicates hetero porn so I object to that too. All the stuff we have said about desensitisation/attitudes towards sexual identity/expectations of a partner apply to gay porn too.

Can you define what you mean by erotica - it means different things to different people?

"and to imply that if you're not against porn per se, you must therefore support the rape and torture of women is dense. to the max."

Why?

I am against porn because terrible things happen to women in the making of porn.

Logically people who are not against porn are either ambivalent about what happens to these woman, don't care about what happens to them, are ignorant of what happens to them or are titillated by what happens to them.

I don't see how you can be against rape and misogyny and be pro porn - they go hand in hand. (I also don't see how you can be against racism and be pro porn - racist stereotypes are rife in porn).

An inconvenient fact for many people, I know. And one they often choose to ignore in their self indulgent pursuit of titillation and orgasm.

"Porn is part of it. But all these images are offensive, distorted versions of reality. I fully acknowledge that but don't see what you can do about it. I don't want to watch so I turn the tv off.

Maybe they damage society but all you can do is vote with your remote control and encourage others to do likewise."

Carmen, I think that's a victim mentality. I told you about an offensive cartoon I watched as a child and none of the people who designed, manufactured and produced it thought there was any problem. Which tells me women had no power or control over its production. It's a difficult struggle but women need more power, real power, over the mass media. CSI, for example. It's a newish drama and it's jam-packed with misogyny. NOthing's changing. So we need to try harder, not give up.
Voting with your remote does nothing. I read somewhere that boycott is the least efficient way to effect change. The people at the top of the conglomerates are too powerful.

re. the soft porn argument. For me, the issue with porn is that women are being paid. That's the major issue: the industry which preys on women of a certain socio-economic status.

I said earlier down the thread I'd have less of a problem if people filmed themselves for exhibitionism, but I do think they should weigh up the thrill of exhibitionism over the effect of producing porn for public viewing. Denying that porn affects society is an immature argument. It affects growing teenage minds , so as long as exhibitionists are aware of that, and are honest about the fact they don't give a shit about the societal effects, then I don't see how you can stop them without being accused of control-freakery.

Another problem I have with non-violent paid-porn is the fact that it's all fake. THe pleasure is fake, otherwise the women would be doing it for free.

interesting post thebutterflyeffect.

the irony of this is i don't even use porn and i'm not massively pro porn.

i strongly disagree with the line of thought that porn users and makers are all misogynists who condone the raping and abusing of women.

that's bullshit.

"the irony of this is i don't even use porn and i'm not massively pro porn."

I only became anti-porn after I did my research

"that's bullshit."

A misogynist is difficult to define. It roughly translates as "woman-hater" but I don't think it does the word justice. How about "refusal to identify with "the other", that is, a misogynist is someone who cannot contemplate that women don't feel and experience life in exactly the same way he does. Some men have a mental block when it comes to this. They think certain things are okay if they happen to women. Look at the way the West glosses over the way women are treated in Saudi. If men were being treated like that you can bet that people would have more to say about it.

sorry:
a misogynist is someone who cannot contemplate that women feel and experience life in exactly the same way he does

In The Equality Illusion, Banyard mentions a study on the brains of men who had been exposed to lots of media images of naked women (an porn too, I think).
In the experiment their brain was scanned when they were shown an image of a naked woman. It was found that the wrong part of their brain lit up; the part that should have recognized the image as a person didn't react, but another part, associated with seeing a useful object, did. IN other words, when they see a naked woman they see a tool.

Is it barnyard? Baynard sounds more like it

many many many times in the course of this thread, posters have expressed the opinion that porn is rape and everyone involved is misogynistic and abusive.

the truth is that some porn is abusive and some is not. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand. LESBIAN PORN EXISTS. made by women for women. there are also women working in porn who would feel very insulted to be labeled a victim of anything.

i agree about the possibility to get addicted to porn but often this is a symptom of a larger problem, eg depression/mental health problems/social isolation. people can similarly get addicted to computer games or using the internet or wittering on endlessly about misogyny.

"Maybe they damage society but all you can do is vote with your remote control and encourage others to do likewise."

Carmen, I think that's a victim mentality"

No. I don't think it is. I think a million and one things damage society and I am only one person. If I see something very wrong in the world, I like to do what I am capable of to improve the situation. However my resources are better deployed elsewhere. I'm sure there are plenty other people fighting the good fight here.

However, I am confused by this thread. Several people say porn is appalling, wrong and destroys society (or something like that). So I say, "Yes, but I don't want to see it banned for x,y,z" reasons. Then those people say, "Oh, we don't want it banned."

This confuses me because if I see an injustice in the world, I want to change it whether it is through a legal ban, social education or whatever. If I felt strongly that porn was degrading to society, I would be seeking a legal ban as that's one of the biggest steps to decreasing its use.

My personal viewpoint is that this /is/ what most anti-porn people would like to see. This is a natural progression of the argument to call for action. As well as a kneejerk shocked reaction from the public (who already pretend to be scandalised by all sorts of things as they are simultaneously titillated by the details.)

My worry is that this is dangerous for me as an artist and an enjoyer of often very edgy art because I can all too easily fall foul of badly implemented obscenity laws myself or come up against a poorly thought out public outcry such has closed down Bezhti.

And actually, some of my work has been about domestic violence and rape. But much of the public and the courts are historically very, very poor at deciding whether something is obscene or judging its artistic merit. That's why I will defend freedom of expression. Because I feel I can help society (in some tiny, teeny way) or at least hold a mirror to it through art and if you limit that, it limits my ability to do so.

I would love to see removal of exploitation of ALL workers. Whether they be in a coal mine, Iraq, a telemarketing centre or a porn set.

I do actually think there should be more control on the content of porn. I realise this then means somewhere deciding what is acceptable and what is not..........however how the rape of women can be considered legitimate material is beyond me.

Horrific violent porn is too accessible and it should be controlled. It fucks people up.

I agree with LadyBlaBlah, control should be tightened up and some stuff could be banned. But, I understand Carmen's point of view, that it moght be a slippery slope and lead to a curtailing of freedom of expression for certain artists etc. It is difficult and a balance needs to be struck, but I think some of the extreme violent porn should be banned because of the effect that it may have on some of the viewers. I would also ban some of the sick horror movies as well myself, because I think they are unhealthy and may tip certain people over the edge.

"Art isn't more important than women's suffering."

This is nonsensical. Who even said it was?

You could say, "Being able to drive around isn't more important than all the people killed on the road" or "Cutting up your meat isn't more important than all the stabbing victims"

Cars aren't inherently bad. Knives aren't inherently bad. But they are both associated with thousands of deaths.

Stop the rape. Don't stop the porn. The two CAN be separated. It's difficult but possible.

And I already explained that although you personally are apparently not calling for a ban, the logical conclusion of the 'porn is bad' argument is a call for action.

Although I have been against pornography for a long time I've never actually considered the idea of a 'ban' on it.

I think I would see more relevant steps to be for it to be illegal to pay someone to have sex. I would also like to see a law where it would be illegal to distribute or buy pornography that has been made under coercion or under the influence of drugs or alcohol. I would also like to see a law where people who have been in pornography can withdraw their consent to have their image distributed and for it then to become illegal to distribute that image.

I agree that we need a tightening up of what is considered acceptable in terms of violence, depiction of rape and the presenting of women as though they are underage (I feckin' hate all that teen schoolgirl, but she's 18 really crap). I also think we need to tighten up on racism in porn (Asian sluts, etc. I feckin hate that too). There's other stuff I would like to see happen too obviously but the above would be a start.

I don't think any of the above will damage artistic impression but anyway I agree with dittany - art is fab and wonderful but should not contribute even indirectly to inequality and suffering. I doubt many artistes would be so self indulgent or self absorbed as to argue otherwise.

Don't believe I have ever in my life said that all porn is rape and that everyone involved is misogynistic and abusive. Nuance, I do think that rape and porn are closely related and much porn is rape, that all the porn I have seen is misogynistic and that all the porn I have seen depicts abuse.

I have never bothered to check out hunkydory cuddly porn, made by sensitive people for sensitive people, as it doesn't float my boat and I just think it is wrong to sell, distribute or buy images of people having sex.

artistic expression obviously...

Carmen, sorry but that is nonsense.

Knives are not illegal (or normal meat cutting ones aren't), cutting up steak with a knife is not illegal - stabbing someone with a knife is and so it should be. Doing artistic stuff with knives is not illegal either.

Knives and cars are not sentient beings. In pornography people are being sold not objects.

Pornography is not art. Protection of art should not protect the people who sell images of women being degraded.

I said earlier on this thread that the 'freedom of expression' argument is often manipulated to justify misogyny. I know that is not what you are aiming to do here but your sorts of arguments are almost exactly the same as those made by pornographers and therefore support them.

I'm not arguing for 'art as an abstract'. I'm arguing for free expression. That people can write, speak and perform freely.

So I'm not even going to slip into whether or not pornography is art. It doesn't matter.

But Carmen if you and others are arguing that rules necessary to protect art affect porn too, don't you think it might be important to know if you are supporting 'art' or 'filmed rape'?