Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

I defend women having a choice to use their bodies however they want (and to profit from it). I wouldn't want to eat shit but I wouldn't want to get my legs blown off so I neither sign up as a porn star or a soldier.

I'm sorry if anyone feels forced into porn, prostitution or telemarketing for financial reasons. If that's the case, the porn makers are not at fault. In the UK, I don't see why anyone would be forced that way - there are plenty of benefits available to stop people ending up on the streets. If it's because of drugs, then that is the problem and needs tackling more urgently than the porn industry.

Getting a job one doesn't want to do is not the fault of the employer offering the job. Of course if an employer breaks the terms of a contract then they are at fault but if you sign up for a gang bang movie, then you've made a choice.

I don't really see where empathy comes into it. If you don't want to make a porn movie, then don't sign up for it.

I credit women with the intelligence to be able to say no and mean no or to say yes and mean yes.

If they are being blackmailed, drugged or violently forced into it then that's a whole other matter, but I believe all you're arguing is that it's some sort of fuzzy 'conditioning' as the result of child abuse or some such thing which has tainted their ability to consent or refuse something. A notion which I find incredibly offensive.

You keep turning this personal, Dittany and you keep using abusive language.

I don't know what a porn actress in any particular scene is feeling so no, I can't empathise. All any of us are doing if we watch something like that is projecting our own feelings onto her. Everyone's attitude to sex is different. I've actually met several coprophile females. They probably wouldn't mind being paid to eat shit. Not hygienic and not something I'd be into, but it's their choice. As I say, I watched a woman smear herself in shit in front of a room of students, apparently enjoy the activity and then talk about it for quite a while.

If a porn actress doesn't want to do it, she shouldn't sign up for it. There are always other choices and if there aren't, we should be questioning why. In that case, it's not the porn that's the problem.

No, I'm not offended by the notion that women's attitudes are changed by the events which happen to them. I am offended that you think grown women are not capable of saying 'yes' or 'no' to something and meaning it. Sounds like a rapist's argument.

Yes, all these examples are very unpleasant. But not rape.

The women made a free choice to do these activities. The director told her it was a 'DA' before they did it - why didn't she call her manager or just walk out? If it actually was rape and she was forced into it, why didn't she call the police?

What the hell does being "a little freaky about the no-condom thing" mean? She made a choice. A pretty bad one, but a choice nonetheless.

Your abusive language wasn't just limited to sexual acts (that I'm not particularly interested in taking part in). You also suggested that I have something wrong with me emotionally. That's quite abusive.

Why didn't Lori go to Planned Parenthood? They won't turn anyone away for a termination on financial grounds.

These women made poor choices. None of them were raped any more than someone who has a bad one night stand is raped.

Let me clarify that. Someone who agrees to a one night stand. Consents to sex. Carries through with the sex act without ever withdrawing consent or saying no, then regrets it in the morning.

Regretting sex is not the same as rape.

I don't think I've said much about the porn producers at all.

Yes, they're scumbags. Agreed. So are record company executives, Nike executives, military recruiters, sales managers and a whole other lot of people who rely on the capitalist system. The entire system is exploitative and based on making money out of other people. All of it sucks and I think we should move back towards a less corporate, more community driven trade system. I don't particularly distinguish porn above any of the other exploitative employers.

However my argument is that within this system, we all have to make a choice what employment is acceptable to us.

To suggest that women are so easily manipulated and are incapable of giving legal consent is a disservice to our entire sex. My brand of feminism means that women are capable of making choices what to do with their bodies, even in the face of pressure to do something they don't want to. If that pressure is excessive, they have the option to pursue legal action. And clearly, someone has if Mr Hardcore has ended up in jail. Good.

Yes, she was raped. Horrible.

But the message I take from this isn't, "Don't make porn movies" it's "Don't rape people!"

"sex that you don't want is rape"

No, I disagree actually. Sex that you don't consent to is rape. That's the only thing that's measurable. Lying back and thinking of England and being bored during sex is not rape.