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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rape within marriage

1000 replies

tabouleh · 26/08/2010 15:28

Yes unashamedly a thread about a thread.

It is like entering the bloody twilight zone over there. Sad

Jeez there are MNers basically caring more about OP's husbands right to sex rather than believing OP and helping her.

Totally understand if this gets deleted for being a thread about a thread - but if it gets more of the feminist viewpoints onto that thread then great.

OP posts:
SassySusan · 27/08/2010 19:20

Dittany Smashing - lets have a go at academic feminists now... (sigh)

You do realise your offensive post has no content?

SassySusan · 27/08/2010 19:21

Well, I did read the lot - it's confusing because other people clearly had more infomation LB -

But in any case, if you can find any comments I have made about Anchor's specific sitaution - please point them out.. I have only been talking about the general issues.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 27/08/2010 19:23

"Anchor Thu 26-Aug-10 21:36:06
No, Portofino. I said that in the past, he had groped me while I was half-asleep, and that had sometimes led to sex which I 'got into'. And had consented to.

I told him I didn't want to have sex. I went back to sleep. He. Put. His. Penis. Inside. Me.

I hope that makes it clearer than my other four or five reiterations did."

for instance

SassySusan · 27/08/2010 19:24

Right - I'm off to do dinner...

I'm sorry that my academic feminism isn't good for you Hmm

Have fun x

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 27/08/2010 19:25

SassySusan - it's difficult because you seem to have been having a conversation that - yes - related to the title of the thread. But does not relate to anything else within the thread. If you hadn't read it, why not say so?

tabouleh · 27/08/2010 19:25

I think we should let Anchor decide if she would like to start a support thread or ask one of us to start if for her.

I am unwilling to start a second thread Sad.

I will email MNHQ to discuss the idea of a support for rape board which is not in active convos.

OP posts:
Prolesworth · 27/08/2010 19:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

sleepypjs · 27/08/2010 19:26

Sassy - I see you have not read the thread, but my interpretation of it was that I could not possible support Anchor - who I think is worthy of support, if I supported Marantha.

I have tried to demonstrate what I found so unappealing about Marantha's posts. If you like you can go back and read my posts and that might give you some understanding.

Portofino · 27/08/2010 19:27

. I just wanted to apologise for some of the comments I made last night. I got a bee in my bonnet and drank too much wine, and some of my comments were certainly uncalled for. I am sorry if I caused offence.

dittany · 27/08/2010 19:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LadyBiscuit · 27/08/2010 19:28

I don't find it a hostile place at all sassy. And if you read the OP (and yes, the subject was generic), it was specifically referring to Anchor's thread. So I don't think feigning surprise that that's what most of us are talking about, given it's what the thread was about . And can you blame Anchor for not starting another thread? She did that already and was belittled and ignored. This thread was an attempt to right the balance

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 27/08/2010 19:32

one that sadly failed, for Anchor at least :(

I do hope there are some lurkers out there who have got something out of this

dignified · 27/08/2010 19:34

I honestly dont get why people are debating the definition of rape when the law has already defined it , clearly so.

Is there any other crimes that are debated in this way ? When we refer to robbery or other crimes, do we take into account that the people concerned knew each other , or said this or that? Do we ask if the victim somehow assisted , or gave off the wrong message unintentionally and therefore it wasnt " really robbery " ?

Can you imagine a victim of theft or arson being grilled in the courts in this manner ?

The law is clear , penetrating someone without their permission is wrong, whether your on a date, whether your married to them or whether youve been seeing them and having sex for years. Ive NEVER seen other crimes debated in this way, because theyre not debatable, the law is clear, its other peoples perceptions that are fucked up, and its not surprising given the crap were fed.

Anchors been told that what other posters " need " is for her to make up ect and move on, are some of you really that threatened by a woman who knows her own mind and says No and means it ?

dittany · 27/08/2010 19:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

grapeandlemon · 27/08/2010 19:43

I think some posters have been reading Anchors words but are so wrapped up in their own arguments about what constitutes "real rape", her graphic account of what her husband did to her has been passing them by.

Poor, poor Anchor, she wrote looking for support and look what she got, absolutely unbelievable. A real eye opener about how difficult it must be in the "system" for rape victims. Sad

marantha · 27/08/2010 19:56

It sounds strange, but I wish the 'r' word hadn't been mentioned. Then I wouldn't have gotten my knickers in a twist thinking about what rape is/isn't. All that time thinking about the definitions, trying to get my head around it all. Why? I've been foolish.
Can't see the bloody wood for the trees.

If he put his penis in her and she didn't wish it, he shouldn't have done it. End of.
Where she goes from here regarding what happened, I do not know and wouldn't like to advise.

Prolesworth · 27/08/2010 19:57

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StewieGriffinsMom · 27/08/2010 20:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

marantha · 27/08/2010 20:05

Because I associate the word 'rape' with a criminal act, that has to be investigated, both sides of story heard etc etc.
Hence my sitting on fence.

But now, I think: sod it, he did something she didn't want. He's got to be accountable for it to her.

sparky159 · 27/08/2010 20:06

Anchor
i read what youre husband did to you and i had to stop reading-
i felt psysiccally sick and horrible inside and i "cut off".

i am aware that you was asking where do you go from here but i felt unable to answer you-
i felt that although ive moved on-
i couldnt have a discussion about this with you as despite moving on-i know my views are very clouded by what happened to me-
and i didnt think it fair[on you]that i get into a discussion with you.

im so very very sorry.
i wish you well.

dittany · 27/08/2010 20:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LadyBiscuit · 27/08/2010 20:20

Okay marantha - finally I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from. Hallelujah! I can completely see how you are uncomfortable with it because it probably happens more than any of us want to acknowledge. We've had several posters on here saying that they don't really want sex but go along with it (I'm not saying that's rape but it isn't what sex is supposed to be about - a freely given act of passion/lust/love/whatever). Relationships and sex are hugely complicated but if someone has been penetrated when they said no, however uncomfortable that might make those of us in relationships feel, we really need to acknowledge that it is rape. Without reference to our own relationships, without reference to our own confused memories of times when we weren't really that keen, or any other personal shit.

It seems to me that a lot of the anger this thread has aroused among some people is that it calls into question quite a lot of stuff that you've done in your marriage and it makes pretty uncomfortable reading. And I think that's good, however painful it might be. Regaining consciousness isn't easy or painless. But you owe it to yourselves and your children to do the work. In my opinion obviously.

ISNT · 27/08/2010 20:26

marantha I know where you're coming from with that and I think it was raised quite early on in the thread.

I want to thank you for your last post, in that I know on MN it is very hard especially when you are "fighting a corner" to step back and reconsider what you are actually arguing. I think it is very important that you have done that.

I also think that there is a problem with people naming rape for what it is, unless it is a "stranger" type violent rape. This causes a lot of problems for many women. Firstly as if they won't name it to themselves, they can go around knowing that something isn't/wasn't right but not being able to confront it properly as they can't bring themselves to name it, and then it can be hard to deal with it and move on. And secondly, as it makes society at large have a starting point of "hmmm, well is this actually rape, or not?" and then that ties into all the rape myths and to women not getting justice.

In this case a woman said no and her husband penetrated her. It is quite a cut and dried situation. but if people won't accept that that situation fulfils the definition of rape, which it does, then where does that leave women in less cut and dried situations. Nowhere, that's where, and with no-one to talk to, no-one believing them. It's a disaster.

I firmly believe that if women actually were able to talk openly about their experiences of rape and sexual assault, it would become "demystified", and things would improve. At the moment most women who are raped never tell anyone, and this thread shows why.

Quattrocento · 27/08/2010 20:29

Horrific thread

What was that bloke doing? The one who couldn't spell subtle but claimed he'd been to Cambridge? Of what relevance is that?

Anchor, Keep your chin up. No means no, and if your DH has a problem understanding the word, I'd suggest you leave him.

ISNT · 27/08/2010 20:31

This statistic from the british crime survey underlines what has been going on with this thread I think:

"Less than two-thirds (60%) of female rape victims were prepared to self-classify their
experience as ?rape? and less than three-quarters (70%) of women who self-classified
themselves as having been the victim of ?attempted rape? also self-classified this incident as a crime."

Women are taught to minimise sexual assaults and rape, to question whether it was really their fault or he didn't mean it or it was an accident etc. This is very damaging to women I think, as it means that they can never really process what has happened to them.

Anchors knew exactly what had happened, this thread demonstrates how many people in society find that difficult, confrontational even. The fact that she simply said "it was rape" ie it met the defnition, threw people, as women aren't meant to say that, unless it is "rape rape".

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