SGB,DITTANY Particularly.Re - sexual politics/fetishism

[pinemartina]

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in Relationships.Sorry if wrong place.

I hope I can articulate this effectively.I would be really interested in as many perspectives as possible.

I had a miserable childhood.NPD parents.Have had much therapy and a professional career in MH for 25 years.Have been married twice to very passive aggressive men.2 dc each.Remain on good terms
with both.
Recently posted on Relationships about xp,father of my 5mth old dd.He is off the scene.An emotionally/verbally abusive coward.Has no contact with dd.

I have always considered myself a feminist and leaning to radical.Lurking on here has been an exciting and challenging education,too.

Here's the thing.Despite my history,I am with SGB on heteromonogamy as a restrictive,prevailing construct.
I reject romantic love and fairy tales,from a social construct and political perspective,

yet

I am sexually attracted to men.(I have not experienced being sexually attracted to a woman.)And I admit to "fantasizing" (???) about the kind of alpha male,sweeping off the feet,man in control UTTER BOLLOCKS which is the domain of abusive knobs.

I am not into sub dom stuff.
I do not have a sexual submission/rape fantasy.

I would like to have a mutually equitable relationship with a man.A partnership.Co parenting would have been great ,but missed that one.
I like sex.With blokey blokes.

My husbands both irritated the hell out of me once the initial stuff wore off.

I'm not attracted to gentle,soft men.

I think I am reasonably self aware,and unlikely to let an abuser near again.

SO

Can "Romantic Love" be a fetish?
Should I be joining a specialist site to
explore this?
Or do I need more therapy?

Mentioned Steve Biddulph above because I think it's possible to find a man who ticks all the macho boxes as well as the feminist ones :)

Hey - many thanks...more research to do later,when baby sleeping..

Dittany, why don't you read up, then if confusion remains, address your question to Mr Steve Biddulph and his fellows.

www.manhood.com.au/manhood.nsf/3d17d03aceb6903f4a256a74002329aa/cd9efe5881db9f764a256a7a004ddbd2!OpenDocument

OP may be interested in the reference I posted, she might not. It's out there, it's interesting to me, I shared it. I agree with some of it, I strongly disagree with some of it, it's worth knowing about.

As an aside, I very much identify with the female warrior archetype. Don't you? I am non-violent. I am sure I am intimidating to some people, like you are.

Pinemartina, I want to share a few things with you.

Recently, my mother told me she was 'dating' a new man - cue my rolled eyes, waiting for it. She chooses either a) 'projects' she tries to change and control ('gentle' but passive aggressive guys) who eventually abuse her, or b) 'romantic' men who sweep her off her feet...before leaving her mentally, physically, and financially devastated.

This one 'treated her like a queen!' Oh HURRAH mother. Puke.

Now she has left him after moving in with him (so having given up her own flat) because he, shockingly, abused her.

She will do it again.

I spent my childhood watching her get ready for 'dates.' Her priorities were a) career b) dating c) DIY and crafts projects d) us. Although she would have described herself as a lioness who would protect her children. That's because she thought 'loving us' was about that personal warm and fuzzy feeling she got from it, not how she actually loved-as-a-verb in practice.

In fact she exposed us to too much adult sexuality stuff, shacked up with men who abused us, there was always a new one before Christmas and after Easter. Seriously.

She is totally addicted to 'romance' and the pursuit of it. It has ruined her life and it fucked her children up so bad I cannot describe it except to say I spent a big chunk of my young womanhood doing the same thing and ending up in the same place.

Took me a long time to realize the very simple and obvious fact that grand gesture, feet sweeping off romancing a woman is usually nothing but the first sign of more painful control and manipulation later on. To pander to a woman's needy ego and exploit her addiction to that particular fetish is very clever and very sick and very very effective.

Now I take unromanticness to new levels of icy coldness and I'm glad. Want to make me feel sexy? Do the fucking dishes and give me full access to the bank accounts and tell me the truth even when it's going to make you look bad and never dare to lay a hand on me in anger. Turn me on by having a good and respectful and genuinely loving and humorous debate with me and then scramble the eggs while I make the coffee and read something from the papers.

I can be quite controlling of passive men and quite vulnerable to abusive ones so the Biddulph article speaks to me. Hopefully you will read it in the spirit it was shared, despite what Dittany said.

I do agree with Dittany that romance is probably helping you not think about other stuff.

I can relate to you so much.

I'd advise you to focus on your sweet babes and your own mental health for the time being.

wukter - you said something that has told me exactly why I stayed with a boyfriend as long as I did, why I put up with everything I did and why he has the power to get under my skin whenever he called. Blinking heck. And thank you.

sorrento...what exactly did wukter say ?

"
You grew up with controlling parents. Therefore being controlled is familiar and comforting to you."

I have changed some of the words but the idea's the same.

ah, thanks, sorr

Interested why you were wondering AnyF?

'cos I is learning, sorr

MN has taught me a lot...hope you didn't think I was prying

Not at all, just interested. :)

I don't think there is much you need to learn btw. :)

dittany -many thanks! My immediate response to "why are you thinking about men when....."
was a defensive one along the lines of "I'm not thinking about finding a man,only in unpicking an issue that I feel genuinely confused about,and where do I go from here?"

But I do realise the implications of a rapid defence.

However,I am determined to explore how it is that I feel this way. I do not -consciously- believe I am looking for a relationship right now.
But I do think a part of me is secretly hoping that nevertheless,I will be swept off my feet.

It seems that that is how I was hooked by my x partner.I would say that with my first two husbands, I did not believe in "love and soul mate stuff" and I was in control .However, xp rose to the challenge of proving me wrong and I experienced it all as literally being "swept off my feet".Really powerful,considering how strongly I despised all that crap.

But I do think you are right about this being down to other stuff which I am avoiding....

"Needy ego " stuff,no doubt Egypt.Thank you for sharing that.I found it very powerful and uncomfortable,too, ,if I'm honest.I'm sorry for what you experienced with your mother.I do not wish my dc to experience anything of that.My fear is that it could be me "feeding that addiction",if I choose to "believe" in that kind of Romance again.

Your description of "want to make me feel sexy" was also mine before meeting x abuser.

So I guess the stuff I'm left with could also be remnants of disengagement from him.

I will focus on baby and dc.That has always been my priority.And I guess there is a lot of messed up abandonment and identity stuff I still need to do..

so all blokey blokes are abusers then?

sorr, yes there is

I'm sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable, and did not mean to imply that you are like my mother :) Only to say that I can relate to your post, and to remind you what a slippery slope it can be wrt the romance stuff - but you knew that.

This is a great book - the subtitle 'A search for love and power' says it all really...

Don't apologise! And thanks for the link - ordered it.
I am determined that I will move forward from here,being as honest with myself as I can be.

This is all family script stuff,I am sure,but what I am learning from people here is really powerful.
I never expected to be starting all over with a new baby,alone.
I have every other weekend alone with her,and no time without her.She has no one but me.
I need to be a proud,positive role model and rescue myself.And get over the fairy tales.And use my hand.

Dittany: surely if a person is thinking about something a lot and it's an area where they have perhaps made bad choices in the past, it's worth examining their thoughts in the hope of avoiding such mistakes in the future. 'Stop thinking about it' is not advice that often works very well when the 'it' is something that is important to someone.

I entirely agree that PM should be taking care of herself and rescuing herself. But I don't think she should be condemned for airing and exploring any of her thoughts or concerns on here.

SGB,dittany, I was,and am genuinely interested in the opinions of you both,I have been attempting to formulate this issue into a thread over a number of weeks,specifically to get an angle on it from you both.

I have a screwed up mother who has inflicted onto me the burden of her own abuse.I have struggled with my identity as a woman and lack confidence in my own counsel.

You both have very clear assured voices and I have great respect for the strength and integrity of your,sometimes widely different perspectives.

I really don't want to kill the thread at this point,since I am excited and inspired by so much of what has been posted ,and would be interested in ANYTHING anyone might feel like adding...but at the risk of doing so....Many,Many Thanksx

i want to apologise for my rubbish post. I read and replied to the OP when i was in a filthy mood and about to fall asleep and clearly did not read it or consider it properly.

good luck to you working through things and becoming a stronger and more confident person x