Breastfeeding and feminism - is there a stance on this? What did the feminists on MN do?

[hellooo]

Fully expect to be told there is no feminist "stance" on breastfeeding, that the two aren't mutually exclusive etc etc.

But I've often wondered if breastfeeding can stand in the way of truly shared parenting?

I suppose I was seeing sakura's ideas as ideals, and saying if we are thinking of ideals then that is not the way I would want to go.

It may be that we are talking at cross purposes.

She was talking about womens groups offering support by doing cooking cleaning and laundry. I would have no problem with a man doing these things for me and they can do them just as well as a woman, mother or not. If it was someome to be there at the birth or to assist with establishing BF then yes that's a different story. But still, something a male partner could be involved with, I would think.

joanneg20 I think I will turn around some of what you say!

I think that lack of equality in our society undermines breastfeeding.

I don't think breastfeeding is free I think it has a huge £/$ value which is being ignored.

If society really valued breastfeeding then everything would be set up to help women suceed with this. So expectations about babies behaviour/feeding/sleeping patterns would be based on the biological norm and not on 1950s routines etc. Co-sleeping would be promoted. There would be no expectations on women to do anything at home apart from look after the new baby (and any other DCs - although I think it should be "normal" for a woman to require help with other DCs at the beginning of introducing a new baby to the family).

This is is no way a judgement about you or anyone else who didn't BF/continue to BF. I realise that in this society as it is set up it is often the rational choice to FF.

I want a society more like Iceland/Sweden where because everything is set up to accomodate BF.

I agree that there should be much more info about BF/mix-feeding and FF. You are right many women do sucessfuly mix-feed - however it is important that women have info on how best to ensure that supply does not go down to zero.

My mother is an insane bitch and the last person I would want anywhere near me after a birth, with the exception of my MIL, a controlling jealous passive aggressive woman who refers to breastmilk as 'naughty milk.'

So (after my first baby) I hired a doula (interesting to add doula to the housework/exploitation? thread...).

And DH helped a lot, but not quite enough due to work obligations. Which sucked for all of us, both times.

OTOH, my extremely religious friends in another country, who would be the subject of a flaming feminist topic roasting on patriarchy, have an amazing support network. After births, they club together, so the family with new baby doesn't have to cook for a few weeks. They organize childcare so one or two of them can go do the laundry, clean the house, etc. They make these meals and leave them at the front door so the family can babymoon in peace. They take the new mother's other children to the park and overnight. They are outstanding feminists IMO.

joanneg, I will return to address your points. I have FF, mixed fed, exclusively pumped, and BF - but you will know from my posts upthread where I stand. I think the questions are, what is equality, and what is value?

6 months is such a short time! It is a blip in our adult lives, but for a baby...well...it's an Oliver James debate moment perhaps.

Yes, agree with everything you say Tabouleh. The main thing getting in the way of feminism is undoubtedly the way in which society is set up, including for pregnant women and new mothers - e.g. women getting a year off, men getting two weeks off. If all the things you suggest were put into place, it would enable women to be much more supported to exclusively bf if they want to.

For me personally, it was still important that DH be able to share the feeding. But it's not that I think exclusive bf and feminism are mutually exclusive - I just think it's tough with things set up as they are now, including for the reasons you say.

Agree with your post there tabouleh.

I also agree that mixed feeding is not the end of the world - I have many friends who have eg given one bottle at the end of the day. I think that in a way the current approach is too prescriptive but at the same time totally unsupported - women are set up to fail really.

For my own situation, although I am not a very earth-mothery type of person, I do seem to be very breast-feedy. But I don't love it, or feel that I have a tremendous bond, or anything like that. I have understood the message that breast milk is the best thing to feed a baby, and so that's what I do. I was lucky that I found it relatively easy.

I suppose I come from a lot of this stuff from teh POV that I know if I had to sit around being earth mothery with a load of other earth mothery types then I'd go bananas. It's this everyone to their strengths thing again. DH is terribly earth mothery.

"That article in the Atlantic about the case against breastfeeding (which I suspect most people on here hated) contained a great line about 'breastfeeding is only free if you consider a woman's time to be of no value'."

But there's the underlying assumption, common in western societies that breastfeeding takes time from other things. But it doesn't have to after you've got it going if you don't want it to.

You can breastfeed in bed while you sleep, you can breastfeed with a sling while you walk in a park with friends. I know people who have breastfed while at work or uni when their babies were small and their employers/tutors were flexible about them being there. You can sit at a computer and breastfeed a small baby while you do coursework or your business accounts (which i have done).

Not that you shouldn't be able to dedicate time to breastfeeding alone if you want to. Or that it should be used to pressure women to do more than they want to. But I do think it's important to challenge the assumptions that
a. time must be taken out of 'real life' to parent
and b. parenting has no real value compared to other contributions to society.

" I would rather fight for the womb status to BE power."

But what about the menz?

If anyone would be interested in supporting my request to MNHQ to have Mike Brady from Baby Milk Action then click here and bumpmy thread.

"Baby Milk Action is a non-profit organisation which aims to save lives and to end the avoidable suffering caused by inappropriate infant feeding. Baby Milk Action works within a global network to strengthen independent, transparent and effective controls on the marketing of the baby feeding industry. Baby Milk Action is not anti-baby milk. Our work protects all mothers and infants from irresponsible marketing."

I have a little bit of a 1-woman campaign over on the BF/FF boards regarding the promotions of safer formula feeding.

Formula powder is not sterile and the guidelines state that it should be made with water which is 70 degrees. Not wanting to derail this thread but anyone who is interested come see me on this thread.

Useful links for those interested:

FSA/NHS leaflet.

WHO guidelines.

Unicef guide to formula.

So far I have got MN to amend their bottlefeeding section and I raise awareness on the feeding board. (Eventually I hope to start a big AIBU thread to raise more awareness.)

ISNT,
MY DH did all the work when I had my baby. THe first time round my MIL "helped" (I call it half-helping ) and I said never again.
The second time he did everything.
But I'm lucky because DH owns his company so was able to take lots of time off, get the shopping in, cook wash etc.
I was very aware at the time that your average spouse is just not going to be able to take the time off.
WHich is why I believe the government should pay for this service, just like they do in France. It's not an ideal. France does it.

LOts of single mothers don't have a partner.

I think that on a societal and public health level breastfeeding should be encouraged and supported as much as possible. One of the problems with the NHS is that it is very secondary care orientated, so health promotion and disease prevention measures are never given the budgets they need - for example the most cost effective intervention (as in lives saved per pennies spent) is smoking cessation, but the case to say divert funds from heart bypasses to support groups is rarely made, and never successful. Likewise really backing breastfeeding would require pulling funding from something else, and again that's unlikely, especially given people's feelings about the "nanny state" and "non jobs".

On a personal level I absolutely hate the idea that women should either be coerced or forced in any way to breastfeed (or to live with their mothers, or to stay in the hospital for more than a second longer than absolutely required, or even to spend time exclusively with other women) unless they really want to.

I fed my two very easily. I never considered not breastfeeding, but I was very very happy to stop. I found it personally quite suffocating and was very happy when I had my body back to myself again (not for my dh, for me). I am not earth mothery, one of my babies was a limpet who probably would have loved to be worn, but I hated that I never got a moment to myself. It was exhausting (mentally and emotionally). It just wasn't me.

If breastfeeding and early childcare become "mothers work" then what about those mothers who are not cut out for exclusive mothering and really don't want to play that role (and how does it help change society so that men can and want to nurture too). The first six months might be very short in hindsight, but they felt like an absolute eternity at the time (just as context I had a supportive dh, good local friends, food provided by my mother on a regular basis and I wasn't depressed).

I think women should at least be given the option. Lots of women are forced to leave their babies or can't breastfeed because they're too busy.
I am one of those women who find all-women atmosphere's stifling, which is why I turned down MIL's "help" the second time. I was at how dependant I was on DH. He loves babywork but it made me feel very vulnerable (imagine if a woman didn't get along with her H! ) so if there was a service to help mothers it would help BF and PND too probably.
I would have liked a wise old lady to pop in now and again to see how my BF was going, or run some errands, or take the eldest child out, just so I wasn't 100% reliant on DH

If mothers don't want any of that, then they can just turn the service down. BUt right now I worry at how vulnerable some women might be, especially foreigners, or those in abusive relationships, or ones whose mother has died, or single mothers

sakura, just out of curiosituy, why you think foreign women are vulnerable.
this is not to wind you up, is a genuine question, i understand the other examples but not this one

Well I live abroad so I'M a foreigner

First there may be language problems; not understanding how the system works (NHS etc, not knowing exactly what goes on, what your options are, not knowing who to call if you have mastitis)

Then there's the fact foreign women are isolated from family. Their extended family will be in their home countries so they may only have their husbands to depend on. The stress is incredible

Then come other aspects of culture shock that can cause depression anyway, so they are even more at risk of PND

There is a long list. I think this type of service could help foreign women a lot

i am a foreigner in england, i am sorry if that is the case for you, but i don't relate to anything you are describing, and know other foreigners and british woman with young children and there is no difference at all, i think the service could be used by everyone
where in the world you are?

Oh god, no way in hell I would want the government sending (even more) monitoring agents into mothers' lives, thanks. And if you think special breastfeeding supporters, HVs, special government maids would not be a) poorly trained in breastfeeding support b) often prejudiced by their own babycare beliefs and c) gun jumpers with regard to child protection to cover their asses, think again.

FFS. Women with PND and co-sleepers would get referrals to SS, etc.

This is not the kind of support we need.

good point egypt, midwives never ever help me with bf, hv has no clue, local support group much better

Very often MW/HVs knowledge of BF is shocking and has led to a lot ow women giving up.

Infact, if you read the Politics of Breastfeeding the medical profession has a lot to answer for in regards to creating a culture of FF being the norm.

Also, do we want to perpetuate the myth that breastfeeding necessarily means you are going to be sitting on the sofa with your special pillow in your special 'transition wear' doing nothing but feeding for months?

Yep, that was me first baby, for various reasons.

Second baby was in the sling 2 days after birth, on my back at 3 weeks and I had to get on with life so I just did, and very well thanks. I did not want or deserve a government doula. I DID want and deserve a lactation consultant to come help me with DS's tongue tie, but I did not get one and only because I'm a resourceful, experienced, stubborn and bloody minded breastfeeding advocate did I manage to get any help at all.