Breastfeeding and feminism - is there a stance on this? What did the feminists on MN do?

[hellooo]

Fully expect to be told there is no feminist "stance" on breastfeeding, that the two aren't mutually exclusive etc etc.

But I've often wondered if breastfeeding can stand in the way of truly shared parenting?

Ha.

DH is making tea for teh builders and just rushed in and annouced that we were out of milk. Reading this thread I suggested that I could use some of my milk instead

He has gone to teh shop... so much for secretions!

So.

You are an Anti-Feminist Menz if you DO like your wife breastfeeding, because that means you are a lazy bugger who gets out of doing the feeds and it isn't truly joint parenting any more.

And you are an Anti-Feminist Menz if you DON'T like your wife breastfeeding, because the obvious and only reason for this is that she is Sharing The Norks Which Are Yours To Play With By Right Of The Patriarchy.

Just checking.

For the record, DW chose to breastfeed and I was very happy to support her in this choice.

Surely the point is that the mother should be able to choose how to feed her child without her partner pressurising her one way or another.

TBH it shouldn't be up to DH how I feed the kids, because they're my breasts. He shouldn't force me not to BF, if I want to, and he shouldn't try to force me to BF, if I don't.

Of course. A lot of arguments on this are specious. Why can't women just do whichever they are most comfortable with? It doesn't need to be an issue, and it doesn't need to be something you where you first need to check how feminist it is, surely...

No, I have read the thread and commented on the aspect on which I feel most able to contribute. This does not imply there are not other aspects. It's what people do here all the time.

I have just reread the thread and really can't see what you're talking about re the specious arguments UQD. Most of the thread seems to be about formula companies and the third world, how BF can fit in around work, and BF in public.

I would say that the first is an issue for everyone, and teh second and third are undoubtedly feminist issues in this country.

I think on balance I have to concur with swc.

What he says doesn't bother me at all. a) I accept that men are sometimes at a loss as to how to properly support their partners wrt baby feeding b) I just yawn and move on. Yes, UD, it does need to be an issue, and yes, we do need to consider how our choices affect our own equality and dignity and power and those of the other women around us.

Having mulled this over for the past few hours, I'm now thinking we really do need to move away from this nicey nicey 'choice' stuff and start challenging women to choose breastfeeding because breastfeeding isn't just about us (individual woman). We challenge men about stuff and we should be able to challenge women.

What he says doesn't bother me at all. a) I accept that men are sometimes at a loss as to how to properly support their partners wrt baby feeding b) I just yawn and move on. Yes, UD, it does need to be an issue, and yes, we do need to consider how our choices affect our own equality and dignity and power and those of the other women around us.

Having mulled this over for the past few hours, I'm now thinking we really do need to move away from this nicey nicey 'choice' stuff and start challenging women to choose breastfeeding because breastfeeding isn't just about us (individual woman). We challenge men about stuff and we should be able to challenge women.

oh weird double post. Sorry.

egypt can you elaborate on the challenging men thing?

Do you mean that they are challenged on stuff generally, or by feminists, or on BF? Trying to understand what you mean.

Egypt moving away from the "nicey" choice stuff means that someone else gets to say what I do with my body? Er, no. I don't think so.

Would you also suggest that it is for someone else to determine how/where we should give birth?

I have been on a few humdingers on FF/BF on here and have come to teh conclusion that what affects BF rates in this country is a lack of support postnatally. The stats that are often cited by hand-wringers are the stats for exclusive BF. While interesting, they give an overly dismal picture in my view. As if you have ever given any formula, even a taste, then you do not show on those stats. And in our society many women will occasionally give a bottle of formula, that does not entirey negate the fact that for the rest of the time they are BF IMO. The stats for women who are doing any BF at all are much more encouraging. The numbers of women who try to BF at the start are also high. i believe support is the key, and also looking at the less doom-mongering stats.

I was given a book on this very topic. Its thesis was that the promotion of breastfeeding for all women was an antifeminist stance. It was American, and drew examples from the main two camps of mothering styles over there: the 'Mothering' mothers and the working mothers.

Truth be told, I didn't read further than the first couple of chapters because it had obviously been written by someone very angry indeed.

It did make the point, though, that it's a typically anti-women policy to promote breastfeeding yet not acknowledge that breastfeeding requires professional support until we have enough collective confidence and higher numbers of friends and family willing to share support (as they do with sleep/weaning etc). The author lamented that women were set up to fail socially and emotionally if breastfeeding didn't work, and nobody really cared about picking up the pieces.

unfortunately ISNT - at 6 mo only 20% of UK babies get any BM at all....it isn't just disinclusionof mixed fed babies that makes it look bad. it is bad.

the recent thread on 'who was told to FF in hospital' shows women hijacking women in BFing ..by and large.

Yes minty I think that is a good point.

It's something that we are supposed to do, with messages left right and centre confirming that.

Yet there is little support for women to actually do it (they have to get on with it themselves), it is not the norm in society ie women are not likely to have seen other women feeding, women are strongly encouraged not to do it outside the home ie it potentially restricts freedom hugely, and there is a strong message from society that it is weird and icky and creepy. But women must do it anyway.

Huh.

This is a very interesting question that I have not considered before. Thinking about it, I think there are two seperate feminist issues at work:

1. The choice of whether or not to breastfeed

1. If you DO choose to breastfeed, what support you get.

For the first, I disagree Egypt about moving away from challenging women who choose not to breast feed. I am of the school of thought that says "my breasts, my choice" and I don't see any reason because I am a woman I should not be allowed to choose not to breastfeed without having to justify my decision. Evidence suggests that in the perfect world breast feeding may be somewhat better for children but I have never seen any suggestion that FF is intrinisically bad. If it was, we would all be employing wet nurses when we can't or don't want to breast feed.

I understand all the arguments that are pro BF and accept them, but intrinsically I believe that my right to choose what to do with my body overrules any others.

For the second, it absolutely is a feminist issue that women feel marginalised by BF - not being allowed to do it in public, having to do too much and not getting support in other ways. If a woman wants to breastfeed, it's a choice about how she chooses to feed her children and that should be respected. I think that when a woman chooses to BF she becomes little more than a food machine to many people and therefore supposedly shouldn't want to go back to work or to go out to restaurants or whatever, and that is ridiculous.

edgar the stats that are usually quoted on BF/FF threads are the exlusive stats which show

Overall, only 35 per cent of UK babies are being exclusively breastfed at one week, 21 per cent at six weeks, 7 per cent at four months and 3 per cent at five months.

The non-exclusive stats are much more encouraging than that, they paint a completely different picture, which is why I personally feel that it is a shame that they are never cited (except by me ).

I don't have a 'stance' on this per se, especially since it is not always a choice as many women can't bf. But I find it hard to see how bf-ing could be unfeminist as it is such a basic and natural function of a woman's body. I thin it would be easier to construct an argument that spending money on formula in order to fit in with a schedule determined largely by men (i.e. office hours) is not the feminist ideal. I hope that doesn't sound like I'm in any way against formula feeding as I honestly do not care at all what other women do. Just thinking out loud. I suppose what I'm saying is that if we lived in a feminist utopia, bf-ing would not be inconvenient.

This book has been recommended thousands of times on Mumsnet The Politics of Breastfeeding. It is really interesting but can leave you a little bit angry at the world in general.

The reality is that most women (in the UK) start out wanting to BF but most have given up by 6 weeks. This is largely due to a lack of support but most women blame themselves.

In comparison

In 2005, 48 per cent of all mothers in the United Kingdom were breastfeeding at six weeks, while 25 per cent were still breastfeeding at six months. Between 2000 and 2005 there was an increase in the prevalence of breastfeeding at all ages up to nine months in both England and Wales and Northern Ireland. The pattern of fall out was broadly similar across all countries.

I think that the second set of stats are the ones to base the conversation on, i really do. i think they give a more accurate picture of the situation than the exclusive stats.

Specifically the exclsuive stats say that 35% of babies are being exbf at 1 week, which turns the argument to talk about why women aren't trying BF. However "Initial breastfeeding rates in 2005 were 78 per cent in England, " to me shows the problem isn't women not trying, it's support that is the issue

this thread here

i would classify the govt/NHs approach to BF as what is known in managment as the 'JFDI' approach ie Just Fucking Do It. They tell you it's a good thing, you should do it, then do not educate or support the thing they have attempted to motivate you to do. I think this possibly says more about a lack of ability to implement a policy properly, a failing of mgmt/ govt rather than a failing due to mysogynism.

UQD - the man who supports his OH in her decision is not an anti-feminist. stop looking for a scrap.

I am currently enjoying a constant stream of tea & digestive biscuits from DH which i find very enabling of my feeding choice :)