Breastfeeding and feminism - is there a stance on this? What did the feminists on MN do?

[hellooo]

Fully expect to be told there is no feminist "stance" on breastfeeding, that the two aren't mutually exclusive etc etc.

But I've often wondered if breastfeeding can stand in the way of truly shared parenting?

JFDI - LOL.

Bling, your no 2 is key. Absolutely, we need WAY more support for BFing in the community. We need funding for LCs, groups, training of medics, ad campaigns, we need everything.

ISNT, what I mean by challenging for men is that even very profeminist men find it difficult knowing how to support a BFing woman experiencing BFing difficulties. Do they say, just give a bottle so your suffering can end? Or do they say, carry on, you are doing so well, I am so proud of you, you can get through this, I will help, which will possibly prolong the suffering for a bit. They don't want to say the right thing. The women are torn, the men are torn, it's hard. My husband has talked about this a lot. He saw how important BFing was to me so he supported me in an amazing way through extreme difficulty. He thought that if he didn't, I would resent him later. But he was getting pressure from everyone (medics, family etc) that the kindest and most supportive option would be to encourage me to give up.

Belle, hell no I wouldn't support anyone telling any woman how to give birth. C section, hospital, midwife home birth, freebirth - whatever you want, you should get support for. You should also do research so you can make a truly informed choice, and be able to take responsibility for your decision.

However, wrt choice and breastfeeding - when FF is the norm, it's hard for me to accept that women are truly making a 'choice.' I'll reconsider my view when BFing is the NORM, when human milk is available for non BF babies (I believe it is their birthright), when there is adequate support for BFing mothers. At that time, I will understand that the few women who choose not to BF are truly making a radical, informed choice.

Saying all that, I don't blame individual women now for choosing to FF. How can I?

If human milk were readily available, women would not have to choose to use their own bodies to provide it. Men could also provide it.

JFDI - hilarious. And tragic.

ok - 25% at 6mo still isn't great though(obv my stats are old)

Just to go on about this book again (the one I mostly didn't read)

If you take the standpoint that both Militant Mothers and working mothers are likely to denigrate formula users - both in search of some sort of perfection but for different reasons (the myth of the all-nourishing, ever-available mother figure; the myth of the working mother who not only has it all but provides all) then it's a short step to concluding that there is a pressure to breastfeed that goes beyond health/nutrition, and ventures into unacceptable levels of societal pressure upon one gender only.

I think this circumvents the pure and simple fact that only women can breastfeed, and bear in mind is perhaps a more US argument - women go back to work only a matter of weeks after the birth, which must be unimaginably hard, and I'm not surprised they want to raise hell about it.

we have consensus on BF/FF?

That women are all doing their best and that to improve BF rates what is needed is more support postnatally?

Crikey, is there anything feminists can't do?!!!

egypt the challenging men thing. In societies across the world where BF is the norm, are these societies where men are expected to do stuff when it comes to BF or are they societies where women get on with it with the support of other women, or a mix? Do you know? I just have this feeling that where BF is the dominant feeding method, it really doens't have much to do with the men one way or another IYSWIM, and I'm wondering how that fits in. Am happy to be corrected though.

I did both at various times and in reality (in our society, recently, not in some perfect world in the future) it was far easier when I formula fed. Maybe that's sad (?), but it's a fact.

I felt a huge sense of freedom and relief when I stopped breastfeeding - perhaps that is taboo, but I did. I loved having my body back, sharing the responsibility for feeding with my husband, and being able to spend nights away (yes, even nights away for work, bloody career woman that I am! ).

ISNT, I have no idea but am keenly interested in cross-cultural anthropology of motherhood. AFAIK, in more tribal societies, the women support each other and share work so that the burden is not placed on the individual mother. I would love to know more about this - does anyone have links or recs for further reading? I know Joan Raphael Leff has looked at mothering across cultures but not sure if she specifically addresses feeding.

I do think it's sad that we have to rely on the men in our lives to facilitate feeding. We are so isolated in our little nuclear families. I'm told studies have shown that male partner's attitude to breastfeeding is a key indicator of how successfully a woman will breastfeed and for how long. I feel depressed thinking about that. I'm lucky that DH supported me.

The other thing is this very Western idea that to breastfeed you need to be sitting inside with a V pillow, a glass of water, etc, very isolated.

I am quite sure that many women give up during the first couple of months when feeding is intense, because the isolation, combined with the shock of motherhood, make them think feeding is the problem.

Slings are fairly trendy but we don't have a mainstream babywearing culture, a true acceptance of feeding in public, etc. We can't just swing them around, stick them on the tit for a minute, sling them back around to our backs and carry on hauling firewood, KWIM?

Instead, we are nursing at keyboard on MN!

Not quite on the original point but I must admit that 'finding my feminist self' () has made me less militant about other women's choice to breastfeed or not.

I am starting to get confused

So what I want is a society where women can work co-operatively and be supported and it's recognised as important to bear and feed and nurture children, and we can all be earth motherly natural sort of people and all will be well

But OTOH I want a society where women can be high earning powerful types who can invent stuff and go off mountaineering and flying helicopters and no-one will think anything of it.

So, um, how do we do that then?

ISNT - children are small for a very short time, and especially if you only have a few or have them close together that's only a few years out of your life.
You can easily go and climb mountains for the other 40 years or so

The problem for many of us at the moment is that career breaks aren't practical and we know if we leave for a few years we'll probably never get back . Also that the skills we've acquired while looking after children (multitasking and negotiation for instance....) aren't valued.

But I don't see an inherent contradiction, just one caused by the way things are arranged at the moment.

Haha ISNT, I love you on this thread

I want the same, and it is confusing. We absolutely can do it!

We need a list of how.

I'm starting a thread. Am I allowed to quote from one thread to another?

PYT -thats interesting - can I ask a personal q? Feel free not to answer but did you follow the guidelines for making up feeds properly? It seems to me that if you do that ff would instantly become much more faff and expensive - ie to go out you have to pretty much buy ready made cartons.

also if you think about the ideology of fatherhood there is no sense that having a successful career/being a good father are contradictory; fathers are meant to be worldly and materially successful. At the same time, if we reshaped our view of career-successful people to focus on qualities we consider characteristic of motherhood (eg being nurturing and hence a good manager of people, being able to survive without sleep....) we would see success as compatible with motherhood rather than in conflict with it.

Actually we don't need another thread because sethsmum has answered the question beautifully :)

Revolution aside

I think the whole shared parental leave thing is the first step. We need to get children accepted as a necessary and nice thing that goes on, and everyone helps out, and that's how it is. And we need employers to be flexible and value people based on what they do rather than presenteeism etc.

Where I get in a pickle with all this is that I can see the nurturing women and totally where they're coming from, the feeling that our capitalist society rips mothers away from their children, and they can't BF, and they have to go back to work too quickly & etc.

Where I come a croppper with it is that I love working, I'd rather be doing some maths or driving a vehicle or working behind a till or directing an event or staring at the screen in my office than staying at home. And DH would give his right arm to be a SAHD. And I can't work out how, in the world of natural term BF and all of that sort of thing, how I can fulfil my desire to be doing something which isn't that IYSWIM.

I'm an each to their strengths kind of girl

lets see ISNT.... how about a place at your workplace where your dh could care for your dcs, handing them over to you to bf during your breaks from driving/while you do maths?
will work for some jobs, though not all

Oh yes meant to say that we had this the other day, and shared parental leave is a big no for some women on these threads, which is partly what I was thinking of with this conundrum.

SSM maybe this is where techological advances will help - we could have communal work centre things.

Not working from home, as I hate working from home too isolating

welll

carrying on BF whislt working at 9 months isn't that hard - presuming you aren't at work all the time. I have an extra long lunch break to nip home and see my kids which helped to keep up day feeding - though even without that I'd still have been able to do 2 feeds a day indefinitely...(and more on non-working days)

I don't think going back to work is really responsible (see earlier stats: the big drop off in the first 6 weeks at which time very few women would have returned to work, esp as you are on 90% of pay at this time!) - also i could have nights away from my baby by 9 months (all i had to do was pump and dump to alleviate the pressure, baby was happy accepting other drinks in the interim)

so an accomodating employer helps. But isn't essential.

I also think it would be nice if BF was better accepted in public - i think the BF picnics this summer were a great idea. Babies are isolating for all mums though, not just those that BF.

I also agree that work pressures are not what stops women BF. The stats point to lack of support. The NHS needs to put its money where its mouth is on this issue IMO.